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 Post subject: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 1:25 am 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Hello.

My Commander group where I live always "spread the love" when it comes to attacks and disruption. We go so far as to apologise to someone who's already had it badly if we're destroying a permanent of theirs. That will only happen because it's the only option on the board, or that permanent is something like mana reflection or primeval titan.

However I've run into some people outside my group both online at at GP Sydney who prefer to chose a person at the start of the game and pick on them until they are dead, then focus on the next player. Inevitably, they don't win the game. Not the two times in Sydney GP it happened to me, nor the many times I've seen it online.

I actually am rarely the target online. I see it a bit often for my taste and will generally speak up if I think someone is picking on someone else unfairly. In fact, I'm writing this thread because I just got picked on, but it was the first time in about a dozen matches. I mention this as evidence that it's not people picking on me specifically that I have a problem with, but a failure for people to understand that a good game of Commander for everyone is the most important aspect of the game.

And that's why next time you have ulamog on the battlefield, you should "spread the love".

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 1:54 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
Not only does it make games more fun, but there are strong strategic advantages to spreading out your disruption and attacks. It keeps any one opponent from getting far ahead of the table. No one player will feel like they have to take you out before you take them out. Instead of being locked in to alliances and enmities regardless of whether they continue to benefit you, you can quickly shift allegiances in response to new threats and information. Finally, opponents are a resource. If you take someone out of the game, that player can't threaten or disrupt anyone else, which means the remaining players have more resources to devote to beating you. I think it's usually better to try to weaken all of your opponents gradually until you can see how you're going to win. Once you have a plan that takes you all the way, execute it, but until then, keep your options open. Don't commit to a 1v1 showdown that may not prove to be in your best interest.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 2:01 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
Time to reveal the truth. This game from a game off of Cockatrice.



Surging Chaos: why must you keep raging...
Gaka: ^^
onlainari: risha, you're not killing anyone except me
Gaka: you die on this swing
onlainari: that's called picking on a single player
Gaka: that's why
onlainari: i don't die
onlainari: no, you don't, i just got back fog
Rishana: Yes because you're the closest to death
Gaka: fog saves you for one turn, then
Gaka: ect
Gaka: move on
onlainari: seriously, the point is he could have swung at anyone else and done damage
onlainari: gaka, that's called picking on someone
onlainari taps Island.
onlainari taps Mountain.
onlainari taps Flooded Grove.
onlainari taps Darksteel Ingot.
Rishana: And you still have fog
Gaka: it's EDH, it's called politics :P
onlainari puts Blunt the Assault into play from hand.
Rishana: and you're no closer to dying
onlainari: risha
onlainari: the point is you are picking on someone
onlainari: that's not how multiplayer works
mxmlmn is now watching the game.
Gaka: aggro decks sort of have to pick on someone
Gaka: or they fall apart
Rishana: No im trying to kill you. Attacking more than one perdon with general damage isn't effective
onlainari: that's not true gaka
onlainari: i play sapling of colfenor
onlainari: that's an agro deck
Surging Chaos: I will at least give kudos onlainari for using this same reasoning for saving me
onlainari: and i say you're wrong
Gaka: lol
Gaka: i saw that
onlainari sets counter life to 20 (+4).
Rishana: Wonderful. I don't care. Im attcking
onlainari: i'm just saying
Pseudomocha is now watching the game.
Gaka: you only get 3
Gaka: norin blinks
onlainari: why?
It is now the ending phase.
onlainari: ok
Surging Chaos: norin
onlainari sets counter life to 19 (-1).
Gaka: lol
onlainari puts Blunt the Assault from table into graveyard.
Gaka: norin ftw
It is now Gaka's turn.
It is now the untap step.
Gaka draws a card.
Telekinesis: picking on someone is kinda douchy but it happens
Telekinesis: just gotta deal with it
onlainari: it's douchy
onlainari: rishana is a douche
Gaka taps Snow-Covered Plains.
Gaka taps Snow-Covered Plains.
onlainari: full stop
Gaka taps Snow-Covered Island.
Pseudomocha is not watching the game any more.
Surging Chaos: I could have picked on someone with Sundering Titan and taken them out of the game
onlainari: he has no excuse now
Gaka puts Flickerwisp into play from hand.
Rishana: Why because im trying to win?
onlainari: once i'm dead, he has to kill someone else
Gaka points from Gaka's Flickerwisp to onlainari's reliquary tower.
Surging Chaos: yayayaya
onlainari: he could have just done 6 damage to that someone else just then
onlainari: but didn't
onlainari: that's why he's not trying to win
onlainari: just trying to kill me
Telekinesis: it's just a game... don't take it too seriouslty
Rishana: But i have to attack you at some point
Rishana: and you STILL have fog
onlainari: so
Gaka: SC gets his tower back
Taaki is now watching the game.
Surging Chaos puts Reliquary Tower into play from exile.
onlainari: i could use it when someone else attacks me risha
Rishana: Trying to kill people VIA THE REDZONE is not douch
onlainari: that's why you're an idiot, you're saving everyone else's resources
onlainari: they don't have to use them
Gaka taps Glacial Fortress.
Gaka taps Snow-Covered Island.
Gaka taps Snow-Covered Island.
onlainari: and then i die and then you get swamped
Gaka puts Man-o'-War into play from hand.
Gaka points from Gaka's Man-o'-War to Gaka's Flickerwisp.
Surging Chaos: dude, let him play how he wants
Rishana: No i kil them too
Gaka moves Flickerwisp from table to hand.
onlainari: no
onlainari: if he doesn't stop picking on me
onlainari: i am quiting
It is now the ending phase.
onlainari: simple
Gaka: -.-'
Rishana: Go for it cry baby
Surging Chaos: your loss
onlainari: i'm not playing edh with douchebags
onlainari: not my loss, i can chose my opponents
Surging Chaos: I'm copypasting this sucker anyway
Rishana: Oh noes Im playing aggro
Gaka: onlainari - i bounced your reliquary tower
onlainari: that's the point of commander
Gaka: just so you know
onlainari has conceded the game.
Gaka: lol
onlainari has left the game.
Rishana: What to sit around and NOT win?
Rishana: finally
Surging Chaos: ragequit
Rishana: what a little bitch
Gaka: owned by flickerwisp


Image






So, let's recap.


- Previously in the game, you throw a fit about a ruling which you were correct about, but then still continue to throw a tantrum. We acknowledge you were right, but as we try to move on you still stay super salty.
- You call out Rish for zeroing in on you when that is what his deck is supposed to do to be effective.

- You subsequently call him a douchebag for playing strategically. You rage further.

- You then ragequit.




You have been exposed onlainari. Plain and simple.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 2:21 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
I don't see the strategic value in attacking someone with Fog at the ready, but if that's the play someone insists on making, whatever. Tell them why their play is wrong, cast your Fog, and move on. Time will tell if their strategy is right.

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Were you blown away by the insight and hilarity of this post? Damn. Try CommanderCast anyway!


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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 2:27 am 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Poor form surging chaos. This topic should not be talking about the game at all. There have been many games where people are getting picked on, obviously it happened to me once. It bugs me every time it happens, no matter who it happens to. It's less fun that way.

For the record, considering I was playing blue with a few counterspells, and the game ended in another player taking infinite turns, I was tactically correct about the fact he was doing the wrong thing by picking on a player. That is completely beside the point, but it bugs me that people try to justify it as "the best way he can win". That's wrong, but it is making the *casual* game unfun for one player, and that's douchey.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 3:22 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
getting picked on?
play defensively
wait for 'bully' to run out of steam
wait for group to kill bully with noting
?????
profit

DO NOT

keep playing
rage
rage
rage
rage
rage
ragequit
post fourm

eidt: I play standard somewhat competively and i watch legacy/vintite/extend
and the whole point of rush decks is to kill your oppoent really fast so they don't take control of the game
you think in a 4 player free-for-all,heck,even in a 3 player FFA, that the rush deck can evenly dish out 80/120 damage before someone takes control of the game?
no,they must pick on someone
rush deck picking on you?
play defensively
wait for rush deck to run out of steam
wait for group to kill rush deck with noting
?????
profit

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Genomancer wrote:
Our aim is not to make commander an unbreakable tournament format... it continues to be (and hopefully always will be) chock full of crazy powerful plays which you, the players, are trusted to explore rather than exploit.


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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 3:40 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Excellent!

Lol!

It's a game! You know the stakes entering into it. Its not like someone killed your grandma.

What a surprise! The aggro deck went after the player using blue!

I'm failing to see the problem. You play a game online with people you don't know, and expect them to play according to your social ruleset. Guess what? It aint gonna happen! Sure, sucks to feel picked on, but you made it worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 4:02 am 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Kirby wrote:
getting picked on?
play defensively
wait for 'bully' to run out of steam
wait for group to kill bully with noting
?????
profit

DO NOT

keep playing
rage
rage
rage
rage
rage
ragequit
post fourm

You know what? I drew badly. A game of chance, don't deny it doesn't happen. Well, it happened. I got a bad draw. I physically could not stop him killing me. And you know what? He should have focussed on someone else, for both social and tactical reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 4:07 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
onlainari wrote:
Kirby wrote:
getting picked on?
play defensively
wait for 'bully' to run out of steam
wait for group to kill bully with noting
?????
profit

DO NOT

keep playing
rage
rage
rage
rage
rage
ragequit
post fourm

You know what? I drew badly. A game of chance, don't deny it doesn't happen. Well, it happened. I got a bad draw. I physically could not stop him killing me. And you know what? He should have focussed on someone else, for both social and tactical reasons.

so...you lost because he had better draws/cards then you?
what is this MAGIC

seriously,it's just a game
don't take it personally

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Genomancer wrote:
Our aim is not to make commander an unbreakable tournament format... it continues to be (and hopefully always will be) chock full of crazy powerful plays which you, the players, are trusted to explore rather than exploit.


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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 4:10 am 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Ah, but that's not the issue. I didn't create the topic to discuss that game. As I mentioned in the first post, this is about picking on players in general. I am against that. It was surging chaos that brought that game into this thread. Try to move on.

Generally, when I'm playing a game of Commander or other multiplayer, I will often have to chose a player to either attack or disrupt. Sometimes the decision is easy: given I have a krosan grip, and there's a player with a mirari's wake and another with a rings of brighthearth, I'll hit the wake. It's just a better card. Other times, there might be a third player with a vedalken shackles, and now I have to make a decision on which one to target. If the wake player has an otherwise weak board presence and not many cards in hand, I'll go after the shackles. If the shackles hurt my strategy, I'll go after the shackles. If otherwise it's relatively even, I'll hit the wake because again it's a better card.

This kind of thinking is generally what I see in multiplayer. It can pretty much be summed up as "hit the winner". I'm asking the question of when you decide to go against that strategy.

Firstly, as a purely tactical decision, hitting the strongest player is probably the right play. It keeps any one opponent from getting far ahead of the table. Opponents have spells that will be used on each other. If you take someone out of the game, that player can't threaten or disrupt anyone else, which means the remaining players have more resources to devote to beating you.

Secondly, there's the social impact of picking on a player. I find this both a reason to avoid doing it in the first place, and the most sound reasoning for picking on someone given you do. Firstly, if you join a game and just pick on a player, that player is not going to have fun. The point of casual magic is for entertainment, and choosing someone to distress at the expense of all else is just antisocial. On the other hand, it seems socially reasonable for me to pick on a player who is playing an unfun strategy. They've already broken the social contract, so your game is already going to annoy you. Sure, they didn't pick on you, but a broken social contact gives you the right to distress them, hopefully to discourage their strategy.

A final common reason I see people being picked on, again a social one, is spite. Again, it's a broken social contact, however it is far more often unjustified than the unfun strategy choice as written above. However, this is also a tactical decision, as if everyone else on the table knows you go crazy on them at the expense of all else if they destroy your prismatic omen, then it's quite unlikely anyone next week will destroy your prismatic omen.



Kirby, I don't start a thread everytime I draw badly and lose a game. It's a complete strawman.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 4:18 am 
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Joined: 2009-Oct-18 8:52 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oz
someone in blue is in a bad table position?
throat comma go for the.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 4:22 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I guess we just have different options...
i like games where you are free to do what you want,to me,it makes the game interestingly

attacking the strongest player isn't always the best choice,as in they can reciplicate and smash your face in,this goes to politics (which is ALOT of edh)

and for your second point...you just can't take these games personally

another solution is making sure that at least half the table isnt' dicks,that way,people who kick teh crap out of people for no reason,will get ganged up on

ah,the circle of life

the only time i would think it would be a doush bag move to pick on someone is if it's like 3vs1 and that one keeps losing (if it's 3vs1 and the one keeps winning then congratz)

oh and on your last comment,i'd tutor cards just to destroy that guys prismatic omen,and then again,just play defense :D

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Genomancer wrote:
Our aim is not to make commander an unbreakable tournament format... it continues to be (and hopefully always will be) chock full of crazy powerful plays which you, the players, are trusted to explore rather than exploit.


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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 4:27 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
If there is one term I rather dislike when people talk about EDH, it is Social Contract. I can't stand the douche bag level of enforcement the hyper casual players put on it.
If someone attacks you over and over they aren't necessarily picking on you! Rage-quitting and bitching and moaning about it doesn't get you anywhere, it just makes people like you less.
You don't have to play with that person again if you don't want to, but you don't have to be an ass about it either. Just start the next game in good spirits and joke about it.

IT'S A GAME!

Maybe it is just my playgroup, but if someone hits you once for like 5+ damage, you can expect them to keep hitting you until you are dead unless someone drastically affects the game or broadcasts that they will be.
Why spread it around, when you've got an unfinished job? If you take out ~1/5 of someone's life, you're probably going to want to take out 1/4 next time and keep the ball rolling.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 4:40 am 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Sorry, but you and I will forever see differently on this one. If you seriously think that if you have five players, sitting down around a table, and one guy just attacks another guy the entire game with no respect to tactics is okay then yeah, I disagree.

It is, in fact, a game, and hence this is not acceptable.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-15 4:53 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I wish i played with your play group onlainari,i'd just play ramp draw BU and play Exsanguinate for like 15 with 3 conuter spell back up after everyone has an even 10 life

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Genomancer wrote:
Our aim is not to make commander an unbreakable tournament format... it continues to be (and hopefully always will be) chock full of crazy powerful plays which you, the players, are trusted to explore rather than exploit.


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