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 Post subject: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-18 12:15 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Want the general theme to be Legendary Goodstuff. Draw cards, gy recursion, cheat creatures into play, cheat casting spells for free.
Just want to make big things happen, kind of a novelty deck.

- Need to start dropping cards
- Decide a land base. For sure i will be playing all ten Ravnica duals, since i have a set of 10 altered with Legend of Zelda art. Also have every other land i could need as well.
- The appropriate amount of ramp/fix
- Ratio of creatures, noncreatures, lands. Would like to be able to play both Narset and Mayael very much, and since the deck is not based on them (as the commander) maybe the deck doesn't need to be as finely tuned.

Legendary Creatures:
Avacyn, Angel of Hope
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Maelstrom Wanderer
Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Sliver Queen
Riku of Two Reflections
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Isperia, Supreme Judge
Intet, the Dreamer
Teneb, the Harvester
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Narset, Enlightened Master
Rakdos, Lord of Riots
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Daxos of Meletis
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Geth, Lord of the Vault
Reya Dawnbringer
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Prime Speaker Zegana
Aurelia, the Warleader
Sen Triplets
Mayael the Anima
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Sakashima the Impostor
Marchesa, the Black Rose
Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Captain Sisay
Keranos, God of Storms
Erebos, God of the Dead
Arcanis the Omnipotent
Empress Galina
Sedris, the Traitor King
Hua Tuo, Honored Physician
Yisan, the Wanderer Bard
Yomiji, Who Bars the Way
Reki, the History of Kamigawa
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Myojin of Life's Web

Non-Legendary flashy big things:
Sun Titan
Loyal Retainers
Consecrated Sphinx
Regal Force
Bringer of the Blue Dawn
Bringer of the Black Dawn
Drogskol Reaver
Havengul Lich
Prophet of Kruphix
Gleancrawler
Mindleech Mass
Charnelhoard Wurm
Maelstrom Archangel

Creature Ramp:
Birds of Paradise
Sylvan Caryatid
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Yavimaya Elder
Joiner Adept
Farhaven Elf
Wood Elves
Oracle of Mul Daya
Solemn Simulacrum

Spells based land ramp:
Skyshroud Claim
Explosive Vegetation
Ranger's Path
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Tempt with Discovery

Art/Ench based ramp:
Sol Ring
Chromatic Lantern
Fellwar Stone
Mana Crypt
Crucible of Worlds
Mana Vault
Grim Monolith
Mirari's Wake
Mana Reflection
Exploration

Cheating and tutoring creatures:
Lurking Predators
Genesis Wave
Green Sun's Zenith
Tooth and Nail
See the Unwritten
Survival of the Fittest
Dragon Arch
Quicksilver Amulet
Elvish Piper

Reanimation:
Debtors' Knell
Whip of Erebos

General good spells:
Demonic Tutor
Villainous Wealth
Rite of Replication
Twincast
Sensei's Divining Top
Sylvan Library

References legendary cards (and is not Retainers):
Heroes' Podium
Time of Need
Champion's Helm


What did i miss? What is weak here?


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 Post subject: Re: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-18 1:53 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Cards to consider:
Day of DestinyGenju of the RealmGoryo's VengeanceSword of the ChosenTenza, Godo's Maul

For mana ramp: Honor-Worn Shaku

Also, the Legendary Land cycle from Kamigawa:
Eiganjo CastleMinamo, School at Water's EdgeShizo, Death's StorehouseShinka, the Bloodsoaked KeepOkina, Temple to the Grandfathers

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 Post subject: Re: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-18 2:39 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Dammit, i need to remove a few cards not add more! :p

Day of Destiny - Solid, but i play flashy effects over facebeats. Would rather play any other legend or ramp instead of this.
Genju of the Realm - Recursive, seems nice.
Goryo's Vengeance - Fun, but as a one-shot i'd rather not. Shallow Grave is better anyway.
Sword of the Chosen - Idk, just because it says legend doesn't make it a usable card.
Tenza, Godo's Maul - Very solid! I really thought about it this, but i thought if i was going to play equipment it would have to be Champion's Helm.

Honor-Worn Shaku- May have to consider this, but not sure how effective it would be.

Willbender wrote:
Also, the Legendary Land cycle from Kamigawa

Shizo for evasion is the best, but just wasn't doing it for me. It's hard enough to play a 5 color deck so i want most lands to be tutorable.

Want to play Hall of the Bandit Lord though.


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 Post subject: Re: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-18 3:49 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sword of the Chosen really messes with combat math, and for only 2 mana... I am not saying its Umezawa's Jitte, but it also costs less and you do not have to commit to which creature gets it until blockers are declared... Maybe I just value reusable combat tricks too highly.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-18 3:56 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
It loses a lot of trickiness when you can see it coming. They will either block accordingly with 3 extra toughness, suck up two extra damage, or only block with creatures they can stand to lose. It's not a terrible idea, it just seems inconsequential.


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 Post subject: Re: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-14 10:14 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Updated list to come, but for now, lands. As mentioned in opening post, i am going to play the full set of 10 Rav duals since i have really nice looking alters. But i have all duals and fetches to mix in so it's not a budgeting concern to consider adding them. Just don't think i need 20 solid duals.

I think i should at least play the forest alpha duals, because of Forest specific ramp cards and the simple fact all the ramp cards are green anyway b(and require early consistent green sources). Then for fetches, perhaps play a little less forest fetchlands, since i have the others and running 10+ duals means any fetchland can become a green source anyway. I did, however, start with the 4 forest fetchlands just because.

Also unsure a good number of basics to play. I don't play against any Ruination or Price of Progress types, but wanted to be sure i am always good for targets with my basic land fetches.

Considering what i should be playing for 5-color lands. They cannot be easily fetched, so maybe only 4? Tower, Reflecting Pool, Exotic Orchard, Transguild Promenade?

SHM hybrid filters?

Rav Duals:
Hallowed Fountain
Watery Grave
Blood Crypt
Stomping Ground
Temple Garden
Godless Shrine
Overgrown Tomb
Breeding Pool
Steam Vents
Sacred Foundry

Fetches:
Verdant Catacombs
Windswept Heath
Wooded Foothills
Misty Rainforest
Polluted Delta

Alpha Duals:
Bayou
Tundra
Taiga
Savannah
Tropical Island
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island

Others:
Cabal Coffers
Gaea's Cradle
Command Tower
Krosan Verge
Reliquary Tower
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Volrath's Stronghold

Basics:
1 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Forest
3 Island


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 Post subject: Re: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-14 12:07 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
Considering what i should be playing for 5-color lands. They cannot be easily fetched, so maybe only 4? Tower, Reflecting Pool, Exotic Orchard, Transguild Promenade?
They're 5c lands, so they don't need to be fetched. Run a bunch.

Add in Opal Palace, Ancient Ziggurat (if you have a high creature count), and Cavern of Souls. If you're running Promenade (and not worried about lands coming in tapped), also consider Rupture Spire or the Vivids. If you're willing to play politics, Forbidden Orchard is good, too.

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 Post subject: Re: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-14 1:08 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jan-07 1:45 am
Age: Dragon
Looks like a good one for call of the wild. Your dudes are expensive, and you already have top-deck manipulation.

There's an amazing load of solid 5-color lands. City of brass, mana confluence, forbidden orchard, exotic orchard, command tower, and reflecting pool are great. If your general warrants it opal palace is ok; otherwise skip it. Core of mirrodin is usually good enough to use, too. There's no way you'll have room for basics.

Also I like signets. They give you +1 mana and two colors of fixing.

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 Post subject: Re: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-14 9:28 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Looking at your ramp/fixing, why not:

Crop Rotation - Fetches Non-basics (and loves to sac things like Riftstone Portal and Flagstones of Trokaire. You are already running Crucible...)
Weathered Wayfarer - Fetches Non-basics
Expedition Map - Fetches Non-basics
Sylvan Scrying - Fetches Non-basics
Evolution Charm - People forget this is late game, instant speed anti GY hate
Burgeoning - possibly better than Exploration for this?


In general it feels awkward that you so much artifact mana (especially colorless in a five color deck) that won't benefit from your mana doublers (except reflection)

Re: basics

My experience with many 5 color decks has been
- no less than 10 basics if running basic land fetch, - or -
- If under 10 basics, only use ramp that can get non-basics (Crop Rotation, Wood Elves) or dual purpose (Evolution Charm) not basic only ramp (Cultivate, Farhaven Elf, etc)

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 Post subject: Re: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-15 1:02 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Treamayne wrote:
My experience with many 5 color decks has been
- no less than 10 basics if running basic land fetch, - or -
- If under 10 basics, only use ramp that can get non-basics (Crop Rotation, Wood Elves) or dual purpose (Evolution Charm) not basic only ramp (Cultivate, Farhaven Elf, etc)
I usually go with 5 basics (one of each), and have a max of 3 or so basic-only fetchers (if even that many; there's plenty of non-basic fetchers). If you manage to find all 5 basics before the fetchers you've got either supremely bad luck or are running some ridiculous amount of card draw.

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 Post subject: Re: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-15 2:06 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Sovarius wrote:
all the ramp cards are green anyway b(and require early consistent green sources). Then for fetches, perhaps play a little less forest fetchlands, since i have the others and running 10+ duals means any fetchland can become a green source anyway. I did, however, start with the 4 forest fetchlands just because.

I think this is a reason to run fewer green alpha duals and more fetches (even if they're green). Your turn 1 will probably be grabbing a green Ravnica dual, which takes care of your green requirement for the ramp spells. When you are actually trying to grab lands to play on-curve is when you'll want alpha duals, so having Windswept Heath to grab Tundra (since you already have the Overgrown Tomb you grabbed turn 1) is perfectly fine.

Quote:
Considering what i should be playing for 5-color lands. They cannot be easily fetched, so maybe only 4? Tower, Reflecting Pool, Exotic Orchard, Transguild Promenade?

Command Tower is a given, Reflecting Pool is fantastic with the number of double-colored spells you have. Exotic Orchard is never one I've been able to get behind, but you can count on it being green most of the time in the early game. I like the Vivid lands better than Transguild Promenade/Rupture Spire. With fetches & duals, you probably won't need to use them off-color very often, and they are much easier on your curve than Promenade.

Quote:
SHM hybrid filters?

A few can really help. It looks like you're tending toward a lot of multiple color symbols in your green, white, and blue spells, so probably Flooded Grove, Wooded Bastion, and Mystic Gate.

Quote:
I don't like either of these. Coffers is going to be a dud unless you're preferentially fetching swamps (which I don't think you can afford to do to the extent to make it good) or have Urborg, so I'd leave it out of this one. Reliquary Tower might let you keep some extra cards on occasion, but most of the time you're going to have plenty of weaker cards to discard when you've done something like go around the table with Consecrated Sphinx.


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 Post subject: Re: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-17 4:51 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Willbender wrote:
They're 5c lands, so they don't need to be fetched. Run a bunch.[/quote]
I meant with Skyshroud Claim and other land fetches. There are a fair number for forests, and a fair number for basic lands, and very few cards actually put nonbasics into play for you.
I need to balance enough basics for the likes of Explosive Vegetation and Kodama's Reach, and the duals work with Claim and Hunting Grounds types.
I would like to use more than than 4 though, as long as there is some balance.
mmcgeach wrote:
Looks like a good one for call of the wild. Your dudes are expensive, and you already have top-deck manipulation.

There's no way you'll have room for basics.

Also I like signets. They give you +1 mana and two colors of fixing.


Not a bad card, but my top deck manipulation is only Top, Library, and maybe Oracle. I play so much draw effects though, i think i'll be using mana for other things. I'll try it.

Need basics for Explosive Vegetation and Kodama's Reach (see above).

Signets are really good, but i much prefer to play land ramp. For artifact mana i like it to be more explosive, like Mana Crypt or such, so i can cast my land ramp spells even earlier. What do you think of the likes of Nature's Lore and Three Visits as 2-cc ramp?

Treamayne wrote:
Crop Rotation - Fetches Non-basics (and loves to sac things like Riftstone Portal and Flagstones of Trokaire. You are already running Crucible...)
Weathered Wayfarer - Fetches Non-basics
Expedition Map - Fetches Non-basics
Sylvan Scrying - Fetches Non-basics
Evolution Charm - People forget this is late game, instant speed anti GY hate
Burgeoning - possibly better than Exploration for this?

- Rotation should have been on there. I dropped Crucible though.
- Wayfarer doesn't work with my ramp. It's going to be a dead card all the time.
- Prefer Scrying and don't need both. I don't have a lot of lands i need to tutor into hand for, mostly Cradle, Coffers, and Urborg since they are the most powerful. I am sure i wouldn't be looking for a 5 color land very often, with fetches and other land search.
- Flexible, but doesn't really fit the deck in any way besides returning a creature to hand. It's also a basic land searcher and for this deck is outclassed by something ramps and fixes, like Three Visits.
- Burgeoning is definitely alright, goes much better with all the draw. I'll replace it.
Treamayne wrote:
In general it feels awkward that you so much artifact mana (especially colorless in a five color deck) that won't benefit from your mana doublers (except reflection)

There's only 4 colorless mana rocks, but they are the best and allow for the ramp spells to be played very early on.
And there's only 2 mana doublers. Wake is one card that doesn't affect 4 mana rocks. I mean, i get your point, but they are each good on their own right?
Treamayne wrote:
- no less than 10 basics if running basic land fetch, - or -
- If under 10 basics, only use ramp that can get non-basics (Crop Rotation, Wood Elves) or dual purpose (Evolution Charm) not basic only ramp (Cultivate, Farhaven Elf, etc)

I can see that. Very much depends on how much basic land fetch you are running to decide if 10 is the threshold or not though. 10 seems like plenty to me for Cultivate/Kodama's Reach/Explosive Vegetation/maybe Nissa's Expedition. If i see all 4, that's 8 basics, so even if i hit two by then i still have all the targets, but honestly at the 4th spell i don't care anymore. Pretty unlikely anyway so i think 10ish is fine for me.
JJackson wrote:
I like the Vivid lands better than Transguild Promenade/Rupture Spire. With fetches & duals, you probably won't need to use them off-color very often, and they are much easier on your curve than Promenade.

I forgot about the vivids. I don't think i play all 5 though. I didn't want a lot of tapped lands though. They are easier than Promenade, but Promenade would have just been the 1-of, until i figured out what 5-c lands were better.

JJackson wrote:
Quote:
SHM hybrid filters?

A few can really help. It looks like you're tending toward a lot of multiple color symbols in your green, white, and blue spells, so probably Flooded Grove, Wooded Bastion, and Mystic Gate.

I think i could do that, but how to fit them in with relation to the 5-c lands? I will keep around 10 basics, the 10 rav duals, maybe 5-6 fetches, about 5 alpha duals, and so far 6 nonbasic/utility types.

JJackson wrote:
Quote:
I don't like either of these. Coffers is going to be a dud
Reliquary Tower might let you keep some extra cards on occasion, but most of the time you're going to have plenty of weaker cards to discard when you've done something like go around the table with Consecrated Sphinx.

There are a few ways to get coffers to tap for mana on it's own, but even with 3 swamps it breaks even (though has to be BBB). However, for nonbasic land search (or Demonic Tutor which gets either land or nonbasic land search) i will get Urborg to pair with it. It might not be great in a 5-c deck but i have to try it. I play it in UBG and have only a couple black cards and it still does a lot of work as colorless mana.
I play way too many draw effects not to try reliquary tower, but the colorless land does hurt a lot.

If they don't work, i'll drop them, but given the casual nature of the deck it won't kill me to at least try it out.


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 Post subject: Re: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-18 1:11 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Quote:
I forgot about the vivids. I don't think i play all 5 though. I didn't want a lot of tapped lands though. They are easier than Promenade, but Promenade would have just been the 1-of, until i figured out what 5-c lands were better.

Yeah, probably 2-3 at most. You are likely to be fetching green duals, so probably blue and white vivids at most.


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 Post subject: Re: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-28 4:36 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
New, tentative list for lands.

I decided i had no room for Vivids or SHM hybrids.
Dropped Reliquary Tower and Volrath's Stronghold.
Upped the count on 5-c lands, however didn't go past 4 as i want my lands to be able to be ramped into off spells.
Fetches are nongreen, as every one of them can be a green source, but give more non-green color combination options later.

Should i run no basic lands and run more of the 'forest' land ramp spells like Hunting Wilds instead of Explosive Vegetation? Or, more basics so i can play stuff like Yavimaya Elder?
If i play no basics at all, i would fill out the slots with a couple hybrids, duals and 5-c lands.

35 lands:

- 10 Rav duals

- Savannah
- Taiga
- Bayou
- Tropical Island
- Tundra
- Underground Sea

- Krosan Verge
- Fetid Heath
- Scalding Tarn
- Polluted Delta
- Flooded Strand
- Bloodstained Mire

- Gaea's Cradle
- Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
- Cabal Coffers

- Command Tower
- Reflecting Pool
- Forbidden Orchard
- Exotic Orchard

- 2 Forest
- Plains
- Swamp
- Mountain
- Island


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 Post subject: Re: 5c Legendary Goodstuff
AgePosted: 2015-Feb-18 6:44 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Updated list for nonlands. I work slowly and don't update, but i do still work on it.

Lands list is above and still current. Coffers, Urborg, and a Forest going to be replace by 5-c lands.

For creatures i have added some smaller CMC legends. Since this is super casual (in the sense that i willingly choose not to play counters, removal, etc), i was thinking some rather hurty creature effects is ok to play. So i have Elesh Norn, Thraximundar, Sheoldred, and Teferi. I figure they can generally be pretty antisocial, but since the deck isn't remotely optimized i don't think that i could be oppressive if i tried.

May remove Azusa - not a huge amount of lands in the deck, although at some points i've had the draw power to knock em out. Just never impressed though.
Considering, Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, Loyal Retainers (crappy reanimate spell, but works with my other forms of recursion), and Prince of Thralls.

Creatures (no order):
Oracle of Mul Daya
Joiner Adept
Elvish Piper
Havengul Lich
Prophet of Kruphix
Consecrated Sphinx
Silent-Blade Oni
Mindleech Mass
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
Sedris, the Traitor King
Marchesa, the Black Rose
Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
Avacyn Angel of Hope
Mayael the Anima
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls
Sen Triplets
Captain Sisay
Animar, Soul of Elements
Geth, Lord of the Vault
Maelstrom Wanderer
Keranos, God of Storms
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Thraximundar
Surrak Dragonclaw
Daxos of Meletis
Yomiji, Who Bars the Way
Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Prime Speaker Zegana
Isperia, Supreme Judge
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Teneb, the Harvester

Noncreature Permanents:
Chromatic Lantern
Mirari's Wake
Sol Ring
Heoes' Podium
Lurking Predators
Dragon Arch
Survival of the Fittest
Quicksilver Amulet
Sensei's Divining Top
Mana Reflection

Spells:
See the Unwritten
Tooth and Nail
Crop Rotation
Skyshroud Claim
Tempt with Discovery
Kodama's Reach
Hunting Wilds
Three Visits
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor


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