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 Post subject: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-01 9:28 pm 

Joined: 2007-Dec-14 3:34 pm
Age: Wyvern
Location: Southern California
Hello,

I wanted to open a discussion up about Hermit Druid, and it's ability to end games with a single activation. I'm not going to go out and say it has ruined the format but I have won many games and have been killed by the card on numerous occasions. Decks dedicated to a druid combo can be very fast and have lots of way to protect the combo and even solid back up plans if Hermit Druid is killed and RFG'd. Other decks can simply add the combo in with little to no effect on the functionality of their deck, most of the cards in the combo are pretty good are their own.

The 2nd part of the equation is the most common method of kill with the Druid which is Necrotic Ooze. There are lots of ways the combo can work and can be executed under any general running Black and Green.

For people who don't know how it all works I will briefly outline the basic idea. Hermit Druid's activation mills your entire deck into the graveyard. Then you use one of the many ways to put creatures into play in the form of Narcomoeba, Unearth Creatures, Bloodghast, then the player flashes back Dread Return targeting Necrotic Ooze. The Ooze is the set to kill with a number of different Combinations of abilities it gains from the creatures in the graveyard (for example Devoted Druid, Anger, Kiki-jiki, Mirror Breaker creates infinite Ooze Copies and Mana). The different combinations are endless maybe latter I will outline them.

There are other ways to win besided Dread Return. Most of the other methods require lots of mana and therefore aren't as fast as the Ooze/Dread Return Combo which is mana free past the initial activation.

The most common forms of hate for the combo are generally not enough. The best defense is to just kill Hermit Druid on spot. While this doesn't fix the problem, as there are lots of ways to rebuy the druid, it certainly buys time. The fragility of the Druid is often negelable due to cards like Regrowth, Genesis, Eternal Witness, Regrowth, and general Reanimation. The other form of hate is general Grave hate. The most common form of gravehate is Relic of Progenitus which can simply be destroyed and then the Druid can be activated. Bojuka Bog doesn't help, and surprise gravehate is hardly ever run due to its inconsistency in a 100 card singleton deck. Another method is simply to counter Dread Return, while this method certainly works Counterspells are pretty easy to play around in a multiplayer environment. The single best way to handle an Hermit Druid combo deck is Bloodmoon, as they don't run basics, however Glissa Decks are bound to have lots of Artifact Mana.

Survival of the Fittest is another culprit, but that is for another topic. I have seen someone grab the chain of Thornling, Hermit Druid, Necrotic Ooze. Cast Ooze, give it haste, and then use Hermit Druids ability in the graveyard to deck himself and win. The fact that Thornling can also make the Ooze indestructable is only icing on the cake.

I believe the issue is Hermit Druid, it's banned in legacy for good reason. Necrotic Ooze is certainly a source of issues in EDH but it takes setting up. Hermit Druid on the other hand can be abused in more ways then just Ooze combo. Anyone have any thoughts on the topic?

A list for reference

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7599

Kitten.


Last edited by RabidKitten on 2011-Apr-11 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-01 9:36 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-20 8:16 pm
Age: Dragon
I am 100% for the banning of hermit druid. It's one of the most broken cards that's still unbanned. I mean, I guess there are ways to interact with Hermit Druid combo; if people have multiple instant speed removal spells, they can disrupt you, but it's another card like Staff of Domination that's NEVER used fairly. No one uses Druid to hit their land drops every game, they use it to dredge their graveyard and win the game.

I don't really care whether or not they ban it, because really, how many hermit druid combo decks do you see in multiplayer? But I definitely agree that it DESERVES to be banned.

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 Post subject: Re: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-01 11:40 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Dec-22 7:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Brunswick
I suppose the defense would that you'd be making a fairly glass cannony deck if you build around the druid. I've seen a couple of the "build around me banned in legacy 5 color magical christmas land decks", and they all fail pretty once you either take away part of the combo or apply a small amount of hate to it. We're also talking about a singleton format so if you build around any of these combos you're likely to mulligan aggressively if you don't have ideal hands. You're going to be constantly looking for hands that get your combo early. So Ideally you want a hand with three lands (one being green), Druid (or ways to get the druid), and ways to protect your combo. Its unlikely to always have this hand meaning that most games you're going off far later then you want meaning that players will have more answers.

If I understand correctly the ideal combo would be to activate druid, bin your deck, put Nacormeba in play, play land to put Bloodghast into play, Dread return Iwin card. There are several points along this chain that the combo can be disrupted, and without key cards the player needs to win that turn or they will lose on their next upkeep.

Conclusion, too many variables for this to be an instant win in a singleton format.

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 Post subject: Re: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-02 1:14 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
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I'm not convinced that Hermit Druid is a problem.
Quote:
surprise gravehate is hardly ever run due to its inconsistency in a 100 card singleton deck.
Maybe it's time to adapt, if this is becoming a boogieman in your environment? Stonecloaker, Shred Memory, and Honor the Fallen are fine cards. I've considered Ravenous Trap before and would definitely add it if I was going to face this combo frequently. Also, all of the permanent-based graveyard hate like Relic works just fine on the Hermit Druid after you've killed it. Its Regrowth is far from inevitable.

The only scenario that would concern me is if people were adding the Hermit Druid and associated pieces to their decks as an ace-in-the-hole, then accidentally comboing out on Turn 3 (without tutoring). If that's happening, I'm listening. But it sounds like this combo doesn't just slot into any old B/G deck. For the early win, you need Narcomoeba, Bloodghast, Dread Return, a way to give haste like Anger or Thornling, and the cards that give Ooze the winning abilities. That's a lot of deck-space (and colors). The comparison to Staff of Domination misses the mark; Staff is a single, colorless card that can create degeneracy in any deck with one of the many infinite mana combos. I think this combo will only persist in a small number of decks in groups that tolerate combo.

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 Post subject: Re: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-02 1:15 am 

Joined: 2007-Dec-14 3:34 pm
Age: Wyvern
Location: Southern California
In a nut shell for the dedicated decks that is how it works, that isn't the only way to assembly a win, but its one way and a fast way. It's less about the dedicated decks and just about how almost any GB deck can construct their deck to have "Hermit Taps to Win" without a whole lot of investment.

The due to the combo requiring little investment other then a few cards that are all pretty good on their own, the rest of your deck can be a solid EDH deck with an "oops I win" card in their. A 1G oops I win card.

I'm speaking from experience of both having played a deck extensively that abuses hermit and seeing the combo abused by other players. The combo isn't the center piece for, but about 50 percent of the time I use hermit to win. Not even with Ooze combo. I usually just use it and cast Living Death.

It does go in any old Green Black deck. I've seen it. Its just expensive, filling out a GB deck to have 0 basics is pretty pricey and tricky, but it can be done.


This isn't a question of banning it, its more a talk of dealing with it and spreading awareness that Hermit = BAD. Kill it, and play freaking grave hate.


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 Post subject: Re: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-02 2:45 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Brunswick
I can think of a long list of cards that fits the same description as Hermit druid, and all of them are still legal (most of them not having been called for a ban yet). As I outlined this isn't some nigh-unstoppable combo like Staff was. If you have enough mana you can untap staff and start over as long as the answer didn't have split second. With druid there are several points along the combo it can be interrupted. Removal, grave-hate, counter magic, its all good.

When a strategy starts to dominate a playgroup just run silver bullets for it. Grave hate is usually the first thing to go for. Its like the duct tape of EDH. It can't fix every problem but it usually works well enough. Other then that there is always Jester Cap effects.

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Retired decks:
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 Post subject: Re: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-02 5:39 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RabidKitten wrote:
It does go in any old Green Black deck. I've seen it. Its just expensive, filling out a GB deck to have 0 basics is pretty pricey and tricky, but it can be done.


I've played around with the druid in my Teneb deck. It has two mayor problems:
-It's a 1/1 that has to wait a full turn to do something. I'm willing to bet my Teneb deck has more recursion than the deck you described, but recurring it was never really worth the effort. I can see this being different for a combo deck based around the druid, but in a regular graveyard abusing deck there is nearly always something better to recur than a guy that will do something next turn if no one kills it.
-It requires the use of little or no basics to work or work effectivly. While not a problem to accomplish, it does pose some restrictions on deck building. In a 2-3 color deck (especially one using green) you will want basics. Having more than 1 or 2 basics will not allow the druid to get you the combo with any consistancy.

As far as graveyard combo's go, there are much better ways of winning the game. Necrotic Ooze is nice for legacy or vintage, but (luckily) EDH just isn't comparable to these formats.

RabidKitten wrote:
This isn't a question of banning it, its more a talk of dealing with it and spreading awareness that Hermit = BAD. Kill it, and play freaking grave hate.


By posting it in the rules section you are implying that you want action taken. If you wanted to discuss the strategic aspects of beating the deck, you should have posted it in the strategy section. Also:

RabidKitten wrote:
I believe the issue is Hermit Druid, it's banned in legacy for good reason.


sort of implies you're calling for a ban.


That being said, I'm happy to see you're sensible enough to see that this card doesn't cause nearly enough problems to warrant even discussing a ban. Good luck ripping up that player's GY :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-02 8:18 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-20 8:16 pm
Age: Dragon
I built the turbo-hermit druid deck at one point, because I thought it would be a fair combo deck that wouldn't get me hated on.

If I was going off later than turn 4, it was pretty late. There are a TON of tutors and recursion in G/B/x, which makes it really easy to deal with hate. If your hand doesn't have trouble finding druid, tutor up Greaves so you don't have to pass the turn. Entomb/Buried Alive/Survival of the Fittest for Anger lets you get haste too. It's easy to play around hate unless there are multiple pieces, at which point the deck is completely warping your local metagame.

I'd be reasonably comfortable saying that this is one of the most consistent fast combo decks in the format, and your options for interactivity are pretty limited. How frequently do multiple players have spot removal and/or graveyard hate on the table by turn 4/5? It's not the common, in my group, but it's possible that this is untrue of most metagames.

Keep in mind, Hermit Druid is a green creatures. That's absurdly easy to tutor up, it's easy to give it haste, and you just win the game if you ever activate it. You can pack a deck with 20+ tutors and Sylvan Library/Sensei's Divining Top effects, all of which help you resolve and activate druid as quickly as possible.

Sure the deck is a glass cannon, but my experience playing it was that it's so much faster than most Commander decks that it never mattered that it could be disrupted.


@ 24x30cl - the difference between this and a typical Teneb deck ( I have no idea if your build is typical or not, so correct me if I'm wrong) is that this entire deck can be built to cast and activate hermit druid as quickly as possible, and then just win the game on the spot. You can do it with haste, you can do it REALLY early, you can back it up with disruption; you can make it harder to deal with than most other graveyard combos.

If you're playing other good cards and whatnot, you're doing it wrong. You're not playing hermit druid combo at that point, you're playing another deck that might combo off with hermit druid. Talking strictly from a winning-the-game perspective, that's probably strictly worse than just building the hermit druid deck.

The reason that Ooze combo is preferable is because it doesn't require mana, and isn't vulnerable to spot removal. If I dredge into:

Morselhoarder
Shivan Hellkite
Devoted Druid
Thornling

How exactly do you hate on that after I've reanimated Ooze? You'd have to have multiple spot removal spells or pieces of graveyard hate, since I can just start going off again in response.

Point being, you can't just throw hermit druid into a deck and expect it to be broken. If you build around it, it's one of the most busted things you can be doing in this format, in my opinion.




The point is, this combo CAN be disrupted, but you have to pack your deck full of cheap instant-speed graveyard hate/creature removal, which isn't something commander decks are typically very heavy on. Most decks I see pack 2 or three cards like StP and GffT, one or two pieces of graveyard hate, maybe a few counterspells, and those are the ONLY relevant cards that interact with this deck.

I'm pretty sure the reason there haven't been calls for banning is because people aren't playing the Hermit Druid deck, so people aren't aware of how busted it is. Really, when's the last time you saw someone cast Hermit Druid in Commander? Personally, I've never seen anyone else do it, and I've played in multiple groups in the NJ/PA/NY area; this thing isn't on anyone's radar.

Again, not saying that I think it NEEDS to be banned, especially since no one is playing the deck in the first place, but I would be completely okay with it getting the banhammer. In my experience it's completely deserving, and the only thing holding it back is that it's not getting played.

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 Post subject: Re: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-02 8:21 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
I play Jester's Cap in a lot of my decks (I hope you weren't depending on THAT!). I play multiple graveyard hate cards in almost all my decks.

... I also haven't ever faced Hermit Druid combo.

I dunno. There's lots of busted stuff in this format. Teferi + Knowledge Pool, Leyline of the Void/Planar Void + Helm of Obedience.

If someone shows up with Hermit Druid combo, you could just scoop and not play them again until they change their decks.

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 Post subject: Re: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-02 8:33 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-26 5:45 pm
Age: Dragon
when you play hermit druid combo, you do a couple things, you generally have an expensive manabase that either loses tempo or is somewhat subpar. You become extremely weak to graveyard hate, and you lose to instant speed draw spells.


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 Post subject: Re: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-02 8:50 am 

Joined: 2007-Dec-14 3:34 pm
Age: Wyvern
Location: Southern California
Being a person who has both played Hermit and played against it I can say it is the fastest combo deck in the format. I play exclusively on Modo so I get to see a TON of different EDH decks, and I can safely say nothing touches it, not Zur, not Arcum, not Azami, not Ramp. If you haven't run into it, or just assume it isn't that good doesn't mean it isn't. It's an expensive strategy, and isn't full adopted as "tier 1" but it's growing in popularity as people realize just how good it actually is. I will put up a list if you'd to test a dedicated list. There is a wicked Glissa version running around on Modo I will have to try and screen cap the graveyard and write down the list when I get a chance.


This list looks like a pretty solid dedicated list. I haven't tested it, but I looks like it would get the job done pretty handy.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/edh-vorosh-combo/


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 Post subject: Re: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-02 9:54 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
RabidKitten wrote:
Being a person who has both played Hermit and played against it I can say it is the fastest combo deck in the format. I play exclusively on Modo so I get to see a TON of different EDH decks, and I can safely say nothing touches it, not Zur, not Arcum, not Azami, not Ramp. If you haven't run into it, or just assume it isn't that good doesn't mean it isn't. It's an expensive strategy, and isn't full adopted as "tier 1" but it's growing in popularity as people realize just how good it actually is. I will put up a list if you'd to test a dedicated list. There is a wicked Glissa version running around on Modo I will have to try and screen cap the graveyard and write down the list when I get a chance.

I'm not saying it's bad. In fact, I think it's probably very good, and what you're saying about it being the fastest combo in the environment seems very plausible. The point of me saying that I haven't yet encountered it is that I don't know anyone who would play it even if they knew about it. In the same way they wont play Teferi + Knowledge Pool, or whatever.

I just think that someone running it would be awfully silly; it doesn't seem like it'll be fun for anyone in the format, like any number of other completely degenerate combos that already exist. That this one is faster (debatably, but I am not equipped to actually debate it, so I'll take it as given) does not really make it banworthy in my opinion. If we did ban it, there would just be the next fastest completely degenerate thing, which would also require banning. Best to leave things as they are, otherwise we'll be banning degenerate combos until the format dies.

In the context of this forum, this comes up a lot. The format is not a robust competitive one. Any desire to make it one is, I think, misguided. The banning of Worldgorger Dragon, Painter's Servant, and Kokusho seem like a justification for banning Hermit Druid, and perhaps they are in a precedential way. But, I think the road that we'll go down if we start banning Hermit Druid, followed by Arcum, followed by whatever will be excessively long. Perhaps banning Worldgorger, Servant and Koku was a mistake because of the climate for banning broken combo it creates, but I don't think this is a path the RC should pursue, if only because there is a neverending list of brokety-broke stuff that will need to be patched up. At the end of the day, we'll just have singleton legacy with a colossally long banned list. Finally, there are also answers (however unlikely) for Hermit Druid, while there aren't for some of the banned combos.

You can't force people to play fun decks even though that is what this format is for. There's an endless amount of broken stuff, but banning parts of it just seems like it misses the point, and in some sense encourages people to move on to the next broken thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-02 12:11 pm 
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Location: New Brunswick
Sinis wrote:
In the context of this forum, this comes up a lot. The format is not a robust competitive one. Any desire to make it one is, I think, misguided. The banning of Worldgorger Dragon, Painter's Servant, and Kokusho seem like a justification for banning Hermit Druid, and perhaps they are in a precedential way. But, I think the road that we'll go down if we start banning Hermit Druid, followed by Arcum, followed by whatever will be excessively long. Perhaps banning Worldgorger, Servant and Koku was a mistake because of the climate for banning broken combo it creates, but I don't think this is a path the RC should pursue, if only because there is a neverending list of brokety-broke stuff that will need to be patched up. At the end of the day, we'll just have singleton legacy with a colossally long banned list. Finally, there are also answers (however unlikely) for Hermit Druid, while there aren't for some of the banned combos.


Most cards on the ban list are broken even if you don't build around them. Metal Worker can be sick piece of mana accel on its own, but becomes absurd accel when you build around it. Hermit Druid is really only good if you dedicate your deck to it, and if you do it can be hated out very easily. That's the problem of building EDH decks like Singleton Vintage is that it becomes very easy to hate the deck out when it only gets to run one of each of its combo pieces. The more focused/linear your strategy becomes the more susceptible it becomes to silver bullets.

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 Post subject: Re: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-02 1:57 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
94teen wrote:
@ 24x30cl - the difference between this and a typical Teneb deck ( I have no idea if your build is typical or not, so correct me if I'm wrong) is that this entire deck can be built to cast and activate hermit druid as quickly as possible, and then just win the game on the spot. You can do it with haste, you can do it REALLY early, you can back it up with disruption; you can make it harder to deal with than most other graveyard combos.

If you're playing other good cards and whatnot, you're doing it wrong. You're not playing hermit druid combo at that point, you're playing another deck that might combo off with hermit druid. Talking strictly from a winning-the-game perspective, that's probably strictly worse than just building the hermit druid deck.


I was replying to the part RabidKitten said about the druid being a universal GB graveyard card. I agree with you that it isn't: I can only see use for it in a narrow combo deck.

EDH is a very breakable format. I've made a Oona, deck that could get infinite mana in the first few turns. After playing with it twice I took it apart. Without even tinkering with it, it could win easily against a full table of players if there was no more than mild disruption. Point of the story: you can easily build a fast combo deck that will rule the board.

Eventually though one of 3 things happen:
-Johnny decides his deck isn't fun,
-Playgroup decides Johnny's deck isn't fun and talk him into changing it, or
-Playgroup adapts and Johnny gets hated out of every game until he gets it

_________________

Teneb, the Harvester
Heartless Hidetsugu
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
Reaper King
Ruhan of the Fomori
Hanna, Ship's Navigator
Ol
oro, Ageless Ascetic
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Nekusar, the Mindrazer



Sapling of Colfenor
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Niv-Mizzet the Firemind
Ghost Council of Orzhova
Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary



Child of Alara
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Rith, the Awakener
Brion Stoutarm
Experiment Kraj
Razia, Boros Archangel
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Wort, Bogart Auntie
Kaalia of the Vast
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 Post subject: Re: Hermit/Ooze Combo
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-02 2:58 pm 

Joined: 2007-Dec-14 3:34 pm
Age: Wyvern
Location: Southern California
This thread is quickly becoming Ban Hermit or don't ban Hermit. I don't think it should be banned, heck my Sek'kuar deck wouldn't pull wonderful Living Deaths without it. I am trying to get the word out about it, and trying to bring it to the rules committees attention just how good it is, in case they care.

The one thing I feel that holds Hermit from the ban hammer is that using it puts your entire deck on the line, if you're successful you win, and if you fail, you die. So the whole go big or go home mindset is retained which is fine by me.

But still word should be out on the block, and the rules committee should know that it exists. And maybe in time it will rear its head more often and will become an issue, or maybe it will stay under the radar and be available for those who wish to adopt competitive strategies.


Maybe i should just move this to the strategy section...


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