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 Post subject: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 3:17 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
The official rules page recommends the following mulligan rule:
Quote:
Partial Paris Mulligan rule

Because EDH games are long and usually not played in multigame matches, EDH uses a modified mulligan rule designed to aleviate mana-light hands without significantly increasing the odds of finding individual cards. This is also known as the "Brittany" mulligan rule.

1. In turn order, players may exile (face down) some or all of the cards in their hand.
2. Each player then draws one less card from their deck than the number they exiled.
3. Players who exiled at least one card may return to step 1 and repeat the process, drawing one less card each time.
4. Players shuffle all exiled cards into their deck.
My group follows this rule with the exception of Step 4. We put all of the exiled cards on the bottom of our libraries without shuffling. Shuffling is tedious, and there's enough of it to be done already. Why add an extra shuffle to the game prep? It costs almost nothing to let players start playing sooner. It is rare for cards placed on the bottom to stay there permanently, and in regard to the rare cases in which a card mulliganed away will never be drawn, so what? Considering future access to the cards you might mulligan is just another (nearly negligible) element of mulliganing skillfully.

I propose that the "official" mulligan rule be changed to replace the extra shuffle with a simple placement of the mulliganed cards on the bottom of one's library.

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 Post subject: Re: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 6:09 am 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Interesting you say that. I haven't actually had problems in my group with the shuffling. Might it be tedious players rather than a tedious instruction?

Either way, I have always paris mulliganed with the first one free, and have never been pulled up on it further than "sure, okay", then they draw up to 7 themselves...

This includes the cockatrice scene.

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 Post subject: Re: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 7:10 am 

Joined: 2009-Dec-17 4:27 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Stockholm
I have three primary issues with your suggestion.

1. Shuffling three or so cards into your deck does not take that much time unless you're being tournament-level rigorous. Putting them in at different places and doing a few overhand shuffles is enough and takes about 5-10 seconds longer than putting them at the bottom of your library.

2. Some people will want to write down which cards they put on the bottom of their libraries, as this is valuable(?) information. This will take longer than shuffling would even if they already have pen and paper ready.

3. Starting with a non-randomized deck feels disgusting for some reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 9:34 am 

Joined: 2009-Aug-03 8:55 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Shuffling is no big deal, IMO.

However, a lot of people have mentioned that they don't like shuffling recently. In our games, Tutors are the main culprits of shuffling.


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 Post subject: Re: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 10:04 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Fugu wrote:
My group follows this rule with the exception of Step 4. We put all of the exiled cards on the bottom of our libraries without shuffling. Shuffling is tedious, and there's enough of it to be done already. Why add an extra shuffle to the game prep? It costs almost nothing to let players start playing sooner. It is rare for cards placed on the bottom to stay there permanently, and in regard to the rare cases in which a card mulliganed away will never be drawn, so what? Considering future access to the cards you might mulligan is just another (nearly negligible) element of mulliganing skillfully.

I propose that the "official" mulligan rule be changed to replace the extra shuffle with a simple placement of the mulliganed cards on the bottom of one's library.


Really? Is your spare time so valuable that you can't spare those 30 seconds?

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 Post subject: Re: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 2:00 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
Quote:
Starting with a non-randomized deck feels disgusting for some reason.
If you aren't shuffling properly, you already aren't randomizing your deck. That's fine. Starting the game now is more important than that extra iota of randomization.

I've never had anyone one write down what they put on the bottom. How would that give you an edge? You're probably going to shuffle anyway with a fetch land or ramp spell.

Why spend 30 seconds performing an unnecessary extra shuffle?

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 Post subject: Re: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 2:14 pm 

Joined: 2009-Dec-17 4:27 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Stockholm
Fugu wrote:
I've never had anyone one write down what they put on the bottom. How would that give you an edge? You're probably going to shuffle anyway with a fetch land or ramp spell.


Let's say you're putting a mass reanimation spell fourth from the bottom and three other cards below it with a Tunnel Vision in your hand. Suddenly knowing exactly which cards are at the bottom of your library and in what order becomes hugely important. Sure, this is probably one of the most extreme cases there are, but even something as simple as putting the only cards in your entire deck that can deal with enchantments at the bottom is certainly worth remembering if you don't shuffle your deck that often. Unless you're in green you're not going to be ramping and unless you have a lot of money invested in your deck it's not going to have a mana base consisting of fetches and original duals. Some of my decks shuffle once or twice at most even in long games.


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 Post subject: Re: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 2:56 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
Quote:
Let's say you're putting a mass reanimation spell fourth from the bottom and three other cards below it with a Tunnel Vision in your hand. Suddenly knowing exactly which cards are at the bottom of your library and in what order becomes hugely important. Sure, this is probably one of the most extreme cases there are, but even something as simple as putting the only cards in your entire deck that can deal with enchantments at the bottom is certainly worth remembering if you don't shuffle your deck that often.
If it's worth remembering, then remember it. Why would you need to write it down? If you do have to write it down, you're in a tiny minority of cases. Putting cards on the bottom instead of shuffling will be faster for everyone else.

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 Post subject: Re: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 3:06 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
I uh, see Fugu's point.

Fugu, why not a compromise, and mash just twice instead of full blown out shuffles?

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 Post subject: Re: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 3:10 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
I'm proposing an official rules change. I don't think anyone wants the official rules to say, "Then mash twice." If we decide that the extra iota of randomization is important, then it needs to be done properly. If it isn't important, it doesn't need to be done at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 3:12 pm 
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Location: Canberra
Well I don't want the rules changed. People can shuffle as they wish, if they take more than 10 seconds I might ask them to hurry up.

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 Post subject: Re: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 3:20 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-10 2:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Personally, a number of games have involved people mulliganing/fetching simultaneously for the first few turns, with the "I can change it if you dbag move me because I searched" caveat (which has never come into effect). It's just accepted that most people are going to spend the early turns ramping and fetching and the like, so why spend an extra 5 minutes serializing the actions when we can parallelize and move on with the game? I guess someone could somehow abuse mulliganing while everyone else is taking the first turn up to them, but there's so little information exchanged at that point that I can't see how it's worth it. Note that we also use the old "free mull, then regular mull" rules, so there's even more time spent on the mulligans.

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 Post subject: Re: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 3:22 pm 

Joined: 2009-Dec-17 4:27 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Stockholm
Fugu wrote:
If it's worth remembering, then remember it. Why would you need to write it down? If you do have to write it down, you're in a tiny minority of cases. Putting cards on the bottom instead of shuffling will be faster for everyone else.

Ok, I'll just spend the time I would otherwise have spent shuffling on deciding if the cards I put on the bottom are worth memorizing and if so, memorizing them.

Either way, it's a lazy and dirty solution to a very minor problem. Using the same reasoning you could add a rule saying that if you search your library for something and find what you're looking for among the first ten or so cards you don't need to shuffle your library. It would save time and only matter in a few cases. It's fine if your group wants to do it that way, but it definitely shouldn't be an official rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 3:45 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-27 10:19 am
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Location: Midwest, USA
My group plays the "Gentleman's Mulligan." Basically, the first mulligan is free; you don't necessarily need a mana hosed/flooded hand. Then, every mulligan after the first costs the payer a card. I find this version to be fairly standard amongst players (even playing in playgroups from five different states).

I view the shuffle being needed. Putting the cards at the bottom of your library in any order is more or less stacking your deck (albeit inverted).

I could swear there is a card or cards that functions off of the bottom card of a player's library, but I'm suffering from card-block and magiccard.info yields some 120 cards that include "bottom of your library".

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 Post subject: Re: Improving Partial Paris
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-27 4:14 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
Quote:
Ok, I'll just spend the time I would otherwise have spent shuffling on deciding if the cards I put on the bottom are worth memorizing and if so, memorizing them.
You made me spray my keyboard laughing. Are you serious? Use this handy rule of thumb: they aren't worth memorizing.

Skipping your shuffle after you tutor is impractical because you'd have to define how many cards searched is too many, and you'd have to count and show those cards. Skipping your shuffle after you mulligan is unambiguous and practical.

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