Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Sep-22 4:59 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 173 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 12  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 4:05 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
:mrgreen:


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 4:21 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Apr-01 1:06 pm
Age: Drake
trevor wrote:
Yeah, I remember that thread. I also remember that, after everyone pointed out ST's absence, the entire thread turned into a discussion about how much they hated ST, instead of listing multiple cards they hate.

I just looked that thread up.

And someone started off the second page by yelling "F*** Sundering Titan" and for the next 2.5 pages, and a couple odd posts in the rest of the thread, it was a giant complain session about ST, with Joz being the sole defender of it :facepalm:

_________________
If you can't kill it with a counterspell or a wrath, it might be just a bit broken


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 5:04 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
trevor wrote:
Yeah, I remember that thread. I also remember that, after everyone pointed out ST's absence, the entire thread turned into a discussion about how much they hated ST, instead of listing multiple cards they hate.

Now that we're remembering threads, back in November of 2009 I posted the five most obnoxious cards legal at the time in EDH here. I actually don't feel quite as strongly about it now as I did that day, but I'm not at all sad to see it go.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 6:09 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Jun-13 5:13 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Midwest USA
I, for one, am also not sad in the least to see it go. Based on personal experience, I've never played a game with it that it didn't get copied, blinked, or repeatedly recurred multiple times bringing the game to a halt and causing everyone involved to have a worse time. I'm actually wondering why it took so long.

I hope the OP realizes that his "Well boo fucking hoo" argument can be turned directly back at him.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 6:56 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-24 12:22 pm
Age: Wyvern
I periodically would add ST into a deck only to drop him and forget about him for 6 months or so until I'd try to add him in again. Everytime it was because he always destroyed the poor guy with the least lands in play, the ramp deck running mostly non-basics shrugged off his 1-3 land loss. I've had ONE game where Titan was entertaining, and in that scenario, ST destroyed 25 of my lands while Prismatic Omen was out.

Thank you for saving everyone else the learning experience of Sundering Titan; he's rarely fun, rarely does much, and half the time cripples some poor guy on 6 land.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 7:20 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
GOOD RIDDANCE TO BAD RUBBISH!

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 8:03 pm 

Joined: 2009-Oct-08 1:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
IotaNull wrote:
Then you're not talking about combatting ramp decks -- you're talking about hosing people for running budget decks, and the last attitude the RC wants to perpetuate in this format is "you should've just run a much more expensive deck".

Yes, thank you. I think this point really just makes it worse: basic-driven ramp decks are the least threatening and least problematic version (like, PT ramping purely to basics isn't actually so strong as to desperately need answering in most cases) and yet the only variety that Sundering Titan punishes.

sabett wrote:
Like it doesn't take 8 years for the EDH community to decide it hates a card or not. The community hated it, yet it was deemed fine, but now because some people complained to Sheldon personally the unfun factor is a bigger issue?

What you are basically saying here is "you are not allowed to be wrong. if you don't ban a card that deserves banning right away, you are honor-bound to leave it alone forever as a result." I think that's silly. Sundering Titan should have been banned a few years ago (probably not eight years ago, the increasing cardpool and huge explosion of interest in the format have a lot to do with why it's inappropriate now) and this ban is playing catchup. It would have been better to ban it earlier, but worse to never ban it just because they hadn't acted fast enough.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 10:14 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Maybe I'm naive or stupid or something, but I never considered the "Sundering Titan stops ramp!" argument before. As far as I can remember, I've only seen ST show up as a tool for ramp decks, with a basic plan of ramping ahead of anyone else, then using ST to smash everyone else out of the game. It's like Mass Land Destruction 101; whoever has the best board position when the land destruction arrives is the most likely to win. And most of the time, that's the ramp deck.

Edit: Props to charlequin for being a very reasonable voice of reason. Sometimes I forget those exist on the intertubes.

_________________
The deck-o-pedia


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 11:42 pm 

Joined: 2009-Mar-31 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
charlequin wrote:
What you are basically saying here is "you are not allowed to be wrong. if you don't ban a card that deserves banning right away, you are honor-bound to leave it alone forever as a result." I think that's silly. Sundering Titan should have been banned a few years ago (probably not eight years ago, the increasing cardpool and huge explosion of interest in the format have a lot to do with why it's inappropriate now) and this ban is playing catchup. It would have been better to ban it earlier, but worse to never ban it just because they hadn't acted fast enough.
No, what I'm saying is they don't weigh online opinion nearly as much as simple personal experiences, the outcry for ST today is frail in comparison to how people used to complain about it. But since he saw with his own eyes people didn't like it, that's what it took to ban it? Any card can be abused out of context and make you think it's broken/extremely unfun from such a limited perspective. If anything you should discredit that more so than online opinion because the area could be biased.

Sheldon says it was banned because it's unfun and people don't like it. People used to hate it even more and talk about it years ago. There's still bigger fish to fry, are those cards going to have to be out for 8 years to or whenever sheldon happens to see a general dislike of the card among people he meets? I think a RC should be able to make a quicker decision than that, and not based on personal experience as such a high factor of public opinion.

Unfun? We hate it? Yes, this is archaic news Sheldon, look in the years past since ST has come out, if this is reason enough than this should've been banned a long time ago, and there are bigger things to ban right now. All I'm saying is if it's going to take a few more years and not a whole lot of cards being printed that change how those cards are being played for the RC to decide it's too unfun for the format, maybe you need to change how you assess cards, because 8 years really defeats the purpose of banning it at all.


EDIT: This is a quote from Sheldon's twitter: "If I were to have a regret about banning Sundering Titan it would be that we didn't do it sooner."

Exactly, so it wasn't some sort of strange new inappropriate use to combat ramp, it's just ST itself. He's saying it should've been banned and yet it wasn't. Why? Why did it take for you to see it in person? We let you know beforehand, are we going to have to wait for whenever other unfun cards happen to cross you in the wrong way? Why did it take 8 years?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-21 12:30 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Jul-28 2:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Welp, there goes the sole artifact in my Wort deck. Time to start looking for something else for my "big bang" effect.

Hmm, I hear there's this "worldfire" card coming out. Might be worth a shot.

_________________
Geist Dad- Because what Uril really needed is counterspells.
Wort, the Funwrecker- Mass land destruction as a lifestyle choice.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-21 12:55 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Jul-30 1:53 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think it's a little uncalledfor for people to just assume the 7/10 was just run to be a dick. That says a lot about what one thinks of the payer base and I'm disturbed to see a RC member echo this oppinion. A lot of budget players ran that card just to give mono colored generals some leverage, and being able to target the player who is obviously ahead was a great way to keep the game social.
I feel like,if you were actually banning cards and prioritizing the list by what is actually the most game warping and anti social, the obvious starting points would be primeval Titan and survival of the fittest. Thers cards are far more game warping, and directly intended to be so a greater percentage of the time than the 7/10. Even cabal coffers seems more reasonable.
The 7/10 just seems like the "well, I don't like it slippery slope of card bannings" card.

7/10 was also a neat game ender. It had this whole,"im gong to,attack with this, I hope you have enough chumps, or your taking 7 or parting with about 3 lands" thing going on. Just the thing to, soften players up for than nice big earthquake. Also if a player is potentially abusing this thing, they obviously have access to 7 power. That's a lot less obnoxious than decree of annihilatio, or j-hops, and sit for a million turns.

Also, the community's shock is clear evidence of a lack of transparency. All we wanna know is what you're up to, that's all. You may feel you don't owe us that, but it's not really that hard, just a little midterm watch list update where you post the banned list up dates.

While I'm at,I feel Sheldon's explanation is alittle inadequate and incredibly canned, I could apply that reasoning to half of anyone's deck assuming it contains good cards, and the added "it's a long time coming" isn't actually a reason.

_________________
tide spout eliot wrote:
Clintaga wrote:
So how exactly does your rugged bad ass and manly-man meta deal with it, exactly?

...It’s either that or the big bowl of nails and screws we eat for breakfast every morning. :|


Joz wrote:
I didn't want to be the one to say it to start, but I do agree with TSE.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-21 2:00 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-19 6:19 am
Age: Dragon
tide spout eliot wrote:
I think it's a little uncalledfor for people to just assume the 7/10 was just run to be a dick. That says a lot about what one thinks of the payer base and I'm disturbed to see a RC member echo this oppinion.


The ban announcement specifically said that it wasn't just an issue of "this card is always run to be a dick" -- it often ended up wrecking games unintentionally (by people who think "that's a cool effect" without really thinking through what it does).

Quote:
A lot of budget players ran that card just to give mono colored generals some leverage


Whatever this card's effect is, it most certainly isn't "helping budget players", who are the most likely to have lands capable of being blown up by this thing. Mono-coloured generals can surely find better tools less likely to cause collateral damage.

Quote:
and being able to target the player who is obviously ahead was a great way to keep the game social.


It does, doesn't it? Too bad Sundering Titan doesn't give you that option. You're *required* to blow up lands of other players unless you're facing one extremely specific archetype. On the topic of 5-colour goodstuff, it's not a particularly threatening or prevalent archetype (I've never seen a 5c generic goodstuff deck played), so running a card for the sole purpose of hosing budget builds of it is still pretty much a dick move. Not to mention that it's trivial to build an effective (and relatively cheap) 5-colour mana base with literally zero valid targets for Sundering Titan, and even more trivial to build one which is very unlikely to have five valid targets on the table at once.

Again, this is a crucial part of why ST needed banning -- it was frequently run by people who didn't really know what effect it actually has on a gamestate.

Quote:
7/10 was also a neat game ender. It had this whole,"im gong to,attack with this, I hope you have enough chumps, or your taking 7 or parting with about 3 lands" thing going on. Just the thing to, soften players up for than nice big earthquake.


Yeah, because gratuitous land destruction is a great way to end games, with such game-progressing effects as preventing people from casting game-ending spells without anyone having a sufficiently strong board position to end the game otherwise. Well, I guess it might result in everyone scooping, but you can probably cut out a middle man there and just not bother turning up.

Coalition Victory, Biorhythm after a wrath and Emrakul are also "great game enders", by the way.

Quote:
Also, the community's shock is clear evidence of a lack of transparency. All we wanna know is what you're up to, that's all. You may feel you don't owe us that, but it's not really that hard, just a little midterm watch list update where you post the banned list up dates.


I partly agree here, although the RC did mention several months ago that the only reason this wasn't banned before was that it was generally seen as antisocial enough that it wasn't needed. Your post, by the way, being a perfect example of how they were mistaken.

Quote:
the added "it's a long time coming" isn't actually a reason.


It was clearly never intended to be. It's a defense against people who think they've just arbitrary decided on it in the last few days with no precedent.

I still haven't seen anyone suggest one possible non-dick use for this card for which it's actually effective.

EDIT:

sabett wrote:
All I'm saying is if it's going to take a few more years and not a whole lot of cards being printed that change how those cards are being played for the RC to decide it's too unfun for the format, maybe you need to change how you assess cards, because 8 years really defeats the purpose of banning it at all.


The purpose of banning it is to stop it being played in the future, not to try to retroactively unplay it where it's been played before. Sorry, but charlequin was right on the money when he (I assume he's a guy) said that this is equivalent to "if you make a mistake, you're never allowed to correct that mistake". It's some weird appeal to tradition that explicitly only applies to bad traditions.

By the way, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but we've had something like 30 new sets come out since Sundering Titan came out. Notably, ramp strategies are more prevalent than they used to be, and people were starting to run ST under the (misguided) belief that it's an effective counter to them. It's also getting much easier to recur it.

Quote:
EDIT: This is a quote from Sheldon's twitter: "If I were to have a regret about banning Sundering Titan it would be that we didn't do it sooner."

Exactly, so it wasn't some sort of strange new inappropriate use to combat ramp


"We should've banned it sooner" and "it's more commonly inappropriately run than it used to be" are not mutually exclusive.

_________________
Patrick Sullivan wrote:
Your opponent might not be a rocket scientist when he kills you with Primeval Titan but you didn't exactly discover time travel by deciding to Mana Leak it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-21 2:23 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Seems to me like the people complaining a lot about asshats abusing Sundering Titan for the lolz have succeeded in getting the card banned for the rest of the players for whom it was an excellent tool for combating 5c mana-bases.

Yet another feather in the hat of the absurd prevailing wind that destroying multiple lands is bad when the biggest issue in the format right now seems to be the ease at which players can ramp, especially knowing that they have very few opponents who run mass LD and that they occupy the moral high ground is encouraging other players not to adapt such a strategy.

_________________
Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
Grenzo's Goblins


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-21 2:31 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-19 6:19 am
Age: Dragon
zimagic wrote:
Seems to me like the people complaining a lot about asshats abusing Sundering Titan for the lolz have succeeded in getting the card banned for the rest of the players for whom it was an excellent tool for combating 5c mana-bases.

Yet another feather in the hat of the absurd prevailing wind that destroying multiple lands is bad when the biggest issue in the format right now seems to be the ease at which players can ramp, especially knowing that they have very few opponents who run mass LD and that they occupy the moral high ground is encouraging other players not to adapt such a strategy.


Every single point in your post has already been refuted. 5-colour mana bases are by no means the most obnoxious and are also the most likely of any mana base to be immune to Sundering Titan's effect. Mass LD is not in any way, shape or form an effective strategy against ramp decks -- ramp is the most effective answer to LD of any magnitude, and it's not even a close call. Sundering Titan specifically avoids hitting any lands that it would actually be useful to destroy, and the most obnoxious strategies involving a lot of basic lands need them all to be of the same type, making Sundering Titan's effect on them minimal.

There's no grand conspiracy by ramp players to keep the strategy on top. ST really is a card that's only good for trolling people who're playing Prismatic Omen.

_________________
Patrick Sullivan wrote:
Your opponent might not be a rocket scientist when he kills you with Primeval Titan but you didn't exactly discover time travel by deciding to Mana Leak it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-21 2:45 am 

Joined: 2009-Mar-31 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
IotaNull wrote:
The purpose of banning it is to stop it being played in the future, not to try to retroactively unplay it where it's been played before. Sorry, but charlequin was right on the money when he (I assume he's a guy) said that this is equivalent to "if you make a mistake, you're never allowed to correct that mistake". It's some weird appeal to tradition that explicitly only applies to bad traditions.

By the way, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but we've had something like 30 new sets come out since Sundering Titan came out. Notably, ramp strategies are more prevalent than they used to be, and people were starting to run ST under the (misguided) belief that it's an effective counter to them. It's also getting much easier to recur it.

"We should've banned it sooner" and "it's more commonly inappropriately run than it used to be" are not mutually exclusive.
You're missing the point, it shows their inability to properly assess if a card should be banned under their own guidelines, or fix that decision in a timely manner, hence when I previously said they have no idea what they're doing. It has nothing to do with making a mistake or not, it's about the incredible amount of time ST has been allowed to be unbanned.

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but those cards have been out for more than a minute, the hate for ST has been less so than it has been in past years, and there are bigger complaints about more unfun cards. These reasons are not justified, if these are reasons to ban cards then it wouldn't be the first card that should be banned.

But "We should've banned it sooner" does show that they didn't act when they should've for a long time.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 173 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 12  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron