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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 10:06 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
ddt15 wrote:
I would not be so annoyed if they had a good, solid reason to do it. Saying "i talked to alot of players and they mention it when we talk about annoying cards" is not a good solid reason imo.

The RC had a good reason and stated it. It is extremely anti social, hits people that are not intented and is often mentioned by players as a card they despise and should be banned.

'You don't LIKE those reasons' is not the same as them not being solid

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niheloim wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 10:17 am 

Joined: 2009-Dec-27 2:26 pm
Age: Wyvern
MRHblue wrote:
ddt15 wrote:
I would not be so annoyed if they had a good, solid reason to do it. Saying "i talked to alot of players and they mention it when we talk about annoying cards" is not a good solid reason imo.

The RC had a good reason and stated it. It is extremely anti social, hits people that are not intented and is often mentioned by players as a card they despise and should be banned.

'You don't LIKE those reasons' is not the same as them not being solid

Braids is anti social. Possessed Portal is anti social. Smokestack is anti social. Sundering titan is necessary. And yes it does hit people that are not intended, usually myself!

I do not agree with this reason and i'm sure a lot of people don't. Most of my friends i talked to about it seemed to think at first that they had posted Sundering instead of Primeval by accident.


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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 10:21 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Then they can house rule Sundering Titan in and Prime Time out. Done and done

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 10:25 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
charlequin wrote:
Sundering Titan is a shitty solution to these decks

People keep saying that. That doesn't make it true. Many ramp decks run a lot of basics. Why? Because ramp is a very simple and easy deck for someone who's getting into commander. Don't have money (or not yet willing to spend it) for $20+ land yet want to play 3-5 colors? No problem, just play basics with tons of ramp and you'll be fine.

trevor wrote:
Kaldare, despite being overly sarcastic in your response, thank you for at least MAKING INTELLIGENT POINTS, unlike the BS the OP wrote.

I try. And yeah, I was a tad bit heavy on sarcasm there. :lol:

trevor wrote:
If a group routinely runs ST, and a player wants to play ramp, it's not difficult to build around ST.

That's true. But doing so gives a deck other weaknesses, which can then be exploited. Now there is no reason for the ramp decks to expose themselves to such weaknesses.

trevor wrote:
Furthermore Kaldare, what you're describing is a resignationist perspective on bannings. "What's the point of banning this card? They're just going to play something else that's just as bad," is a description of what the unpolicable griefers of EDH are going to do. I don't care about those players. Do you?

Except I'm not talking about the people who played Titan to be griefers. Yeah, those existed, and I'm sure they'll be playing Worldfire in a couple weeks. You're right, they can't be controlled.
I'm talking about the people who were playing Titan in a legit manner to combat ramp. (Or, at the very least, believed they were. ;) )
Pushing those player into playing "symmetrical" LD effects is (I believe) going to have a much greater detrimental effect on the enjoyment of the very players the RC is trying to protect with this banning.

trevor wrote:
At least Firebomers is symmetrical.

Yeah... and so is Balance. And I don't think anyone sane would call that fair. So called "Symmetrical" effects seldom end up symmetrical in practice.

pookel wrote:
Sundering Titan can choose to hit three of extra-turn-combo-bullshit-Riku's basics while leaving the weaker players unharmed.

Exactly... Now if you want to hit that Riku player, you have to hit everyone else too. How is that better for anyone except the BS Riku player?

Ban Ki-moon wrote:
I was formulating a response while reading this thread, but then charlequin stole it from me. This post perfectly mirrors my own opinion, and is the exact reason why I voted in favor of banning ST now and not earlier.

So basically... You seem to be agreeing that the reason more people have been playing Sundering Titan is to combat the overpopulation of ramp decks. And the RC's solution to that... is to ban Sundering Titan? That doesn't seem make a whole lot of sense. OK, I get that maybe you guys simply don't think Sundering Titan should be around, and perhaps seeing it more just reminded you of that. I guess I can understand that.
But if ramp is powerful enough to start pushing people to play a card that social pressures had presumably kept at bay in the past, I'd say that's a pretty strong sign of warping the game. And yet you didn't ban anything from the ramp decks.
Maybe it's just me, but that seems to be ignoring the root of the problem and just treating the symptoms. (The symptom being more people playing Sundering Titan.)

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 10:29 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-28 9:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Damidhol, Tuhel
MRHblue wrote:
kaldare - You need to just take it down a notch, as usual. I get it you do not agree, many won't. Most people that like it will say "Awesome" and never post anything. You don't speak for the masses or know more about what people want in the format than the RC.


AWESOME!!

Having been on the short end of a game where over 100+ lands were destroyed by this POS (despite multiple STP's and Path's) by a deck designed (by a dick, obv) to clone/recur/return from exile it over and over again - just because he could - I am doing cartwheels seeing this thing go bye-bye. Literally no other card has ever caused me to actually stand up and seriously consider punching someone in the face (as opposed to just simply jokingly threatening it, which I often do :twisted: ).

As for Prime Time, I wouldn't mind seeing it go, or Sphinx either. But this HAD to go.

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http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc ... Phage.html

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 10:31 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I agree Prime Time is an issue. Sundering Titan should be banned, and now is.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 10:52 am 
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Joined: 2010-Aug-17 12:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Nashua/Salem, NH
Just to add another view - I didn't care that Sundering Titan was banned, it wasn't a massive problem in my group, but I think that's because none of us felt like being a dick and playing him.

I also don't see how this would be a good answer to ramp. I started fighting ramp in my meta with cards like Ruination, Price of Progress, and Armageddon. Those cards answer ramp (which typically abuses non-basics with Primeval Titan in my meta) much better than Sundering Titan ever could.

I never thought Sundering Titan was fair simply because he targeted basic lands (ignoring duals/shocks), which seems silly to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 11:08 am 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-13 2:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
From Sheldon's comments, both here and in the announcement, it seems obvious that "a lot of people complained about it" is now a valid reason for banning a card.

Which I guess is why this thread is quickly overflowing with "you should've banned Prime Time" comments. If it worked for one titan, why not another, the logic seems to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 11:14 am 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-29 11:13 pm
Age: Drake
Sad to see Titan go. It's weird that it got banned now. Ah, well.


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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 11:15 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-28 9:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Damidhol, Tuhel
Malekoda wrote:
From Sheldon's comments, both here and in the announcement, it seems obvious that "a lot of people complained about it" is now a valid reason for banning a card.

Which I guess is why this thread is quickly overflowing with "you should've banned Prime Time" comments. If it worked for one titan, why not another, the logic seems to be.


The only solution to THAT problem on this forum is to ban threads.

At least denimwalk wouldn't work any more...

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 11:22 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
sabett wrote:
It really shows they have no idea what they're doing. Nothing in recent magic changed how sundering titan was played, Sundering Titan has been Sundering Titan for 8 years, and there hasn't be any sort of recent uproar about it either. It's a very glaring mistake either way on their part, they aren't giving the list proper attention.


Also, I don't think there's much that's broken about cards you can say "Didn't use, didn't need" for turns on end. I mean if koko's supposed to be back breaking and warping then why did you have infy better options?


completely agree, sundering titan was the best tool in my arsenal for punching ramp decks in the dick and now its gone for no reason, sheldon needs to wake up this was a BS call.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 11:43 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-19 6:19 am
Age: Dragon
kaldare wrote:
charlequin wrote:
Sundering Titan is a shitty solution to these decks

People keep saying that. That doesn't make it true. Many ramp decks run a lot of basics. Why? Because ramp is a very simple and easy deck for someone who's getting into commander. Don't have money (or not yet willing to spend it) for $20+ land yet want to play 3-5 colors? No problem, just play basics with tons of ramp and you'll be fine.


Then you're not talking about combatting ramp decks -- you're talking about hosing people for running budget decks, and the last attitude the RC wants to perpetuate in this format is "you should've just run a much more expensive deck".

I've never understood why people think land destruction is a predator to ramp strategies. If anything, it's the most obvious *prey* -- destroying lands is going to be less effective against a deck designed to crap them out ad infinitum than against one that gets them out very slowly. If you want a targeted answer to ramp decks, run counterspells -- someone ramping up to big spells probably won't be casting a ton of spells every turn, so you probably won't have to keep much mana up. If the problem is getting hosed by nonbasic utility lands, then Sundering Titan won't help you in the slightest, and against many ramp decks (or pretty much any non-five-colour one), you have a better chance of being forced to hose the guy who might've had an answer to crapyourdeckontothetableonturn4.dec but now can't cast it because you've blown up half of his lands and *any* method of dealing with Sundering Titan will result in the same thing happening again.

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 11:46 am 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-13 2:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
IGottaBigDeck wrote:
The only solution to THAT problem on this forum is to ban threads.

At least denimwalk wouldn't work any more...

That thing you did, I see it.

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Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Tokens, recursion, and lifegain
Vorel of the Hull Clade - Abusing counters for fun and profit


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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 11:50 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-09 9:54 am
Age: Dragon
Location: New England
In my area, two Sundering Titan-related discoveries have occurred in the past year or so:

1) It's a completely dickish card.
2) It doesn't do a thing to ramp strategies.

It's essentially unplayed for those reasons. Which is why I'm a little confused as to why it got axed today.

And again, it doesn't seem to break any of the "guidelines for banning" - It seems like it's only guilty of irritating people.

So again...I'm not sad to see it go. But it doesn't seem to make any sense at the same time.

--->DJ

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 11:55 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-28 9:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Damidhol, Tuhel
Is it just me, or do those (completely irrational psychopathic bastards!!) who oppose the banning of SD seem to be reacting a bit...say... emotionally? Or does this happen after every banning?

Oh and by the way ruling committee: I am calling off the massive airdrop of bales of Sundering Titans on all your homes...though the irony of having homes destroyed by them would have been EPIC.

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