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 Post subject: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 4:36 am 

Joined: 2009-Dec-27 2:26 pm
Age: Wyvern
Why was this banned? Neuter monocolored decks a bit more?? At least you could have had the decency to ban that retarded Primeval Titan as well. Sundering was the perfect answer to everyone on the table crapping out their duals collection in two turns with primeval, and an army of clones/metamorphs/doppelganger and w/e.

People have been playing it for YEARS in their monocolored decks and now you suddenly come to the conclusion its ban worthy? This is a serious kick in the nuts for every one of my monocolored (and Karn) decks.

Quote:
Sundering Titan has long been a card on the edge. The decision to get rid of it came from the combination of two points. One, it simply created undesirable game states. It was too easily both intentionally abused and unintentionally game-warping, especially since its ability triggers on both entering and leaving the battlefield. Two, there has been a fair amount of community distaste for the card, and we agreed that the card overwhelmingly creates a negative experience for players. Listening to the ever-growing and ever more-involved community is important to us.

Well boo fucking hoo. Play some tuck effects/plows or something.

BTW almost exactly the same can be said about Primetime except everybody and their dog plays him and everyone copies him, every game. Noone ever copies sundering.

Serious BS, sheldon.


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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 4:50 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Not going to miss sundering titan at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 4:59 am 

Joined: 2009-Dec-27 2:26 pm
Age: Wyvern
odit wrote:
Not going to miss sundering titan at all.

Ofc not now you can play your 5 color domain deck without any risk. More power to the mindless mana rampers! I mean its not like the whole world is playing green with splash colors right? Even though as multicolor you already have a GIGANTIC advantage over monocolored decks, lets ban one of the few actually useful tools the mono's have to combat this.


Last edited by ddt15 on 2012-Jun-22 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 5:18 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-09 9:54 am
Age: Dragon
Location: New England
While I'm not nearly as upset as the OP, I will admit that I'm scratching my head a little on this one. I'm not particularly disappointed, because ST isn't the most enjoyable card to play with in the world, but was anyone really rallying to get this one nixed currently? "A fair amount of community distaste" sure seems to indicate just that, and I haven't seen much talk at all on this guy lately.

Heck, everyone around here just stopped playing it a long time ago. It's a non-issue.

Sheldon/Ban Ki and crew, any real-world insight on this one? Seems kind of out of left field, considering all of the other stuff that has been a bit more publically talked about.

Kind of surprised nothing was un-banned too...

--->DJ

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 5:26 am 

Joined: 2009-Mar-31 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
It really shows they have no idea what they're doing. Nothing in recent magic changed how sundering titan was played, Sundering Titan has been Sundering Titan for 8 years, and there hasn't be any sort of recent uproar about it either. It's a very glaring mistake either way on their part, they aren't giving the list proper attention.


Also, I don't think there's much that's broken about cards you can say "Didn't use, didn't need" for turns on end. I mean if koko's supposed to be back breaking and warping then why did you have infy better options?


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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 5:26 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
ddt15 wrote:
odit wrote:
Not going to miss sundering titan at all.

Ofc not now you can play your janky 5 color domain deck without any risk. More power to the mindless mana rampers! I mean its not like the whole world is playing green with splash colors right? Even though as multicolor you already have a GIGANTIC fucking advantage over monocolored decks, lets ban one of the few actually useful tools the mono's have to combat this.

The reason Titan was banned (and before he was banned, hated like Michael Vick) was because he is a dick card. Unless you manage to manage to make him phase out or Ixidron him, he's going to blow up 10 lands. And the argument "he keeps ramp decks in check" doesn't work for a couple reasons:
1. Ramp decks aren't that big of a problem when they have 10 basics on the field. Ramp decks, especially Prime Time abusers, are a problem when they get Coffers, Cradle, Inkmoth+Wolf Run, or other combinations of nonbasic lands. Sundering Titan hoses basic lands, which is the opposite of what people want to do.
2. It's not a may ability. Sure, I'll destroy Damia Control's three shocks, but if Norin the Wary is mana screwed, but he's the only one with a Mountain, I'm gonna have to destroy his mountain. And then if someone wipes the board, I'm going to have to destroy one of his mountains.
3. Sundering Titan isn't even the best way to keep multicolor in check. Not by a long shot. Ruination is the best at it, and there are several other LD cards on a stick, except most of them hose nonbasics or any land in general. Also, a properly timed Strip Mine/Wasteland/Tec Edge/G. Quarter will bring a 5 color deck to its knees. And lastly, for mass LD that his everyone fairly, Keldon Firebombers is a far fairer way to do what ST does.

And fyi, multicolor is not necessarily more powerful then mono color any way. EDH is very casual of a format. A lot of people (not all, but a lot) don't want to spend an upwards of $75 on their casual mana base, and if you don't have a consistent mana base, the deck loses a lot of that advantage that multicolor gets. Also, mono color has more generals, and a lot of really good generals.


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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 5:50 am 
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Joined: 2012-Apr-01 1:06 pm
Age: Drake
sabett wrote:
It really shows they have no idea what they're doing. Nothing in recent magic changed how sundering titan was played, Sundering Titan has been Sundering Titan for 8 years, and there hasn't be any sort of recent uproar about it either. It's a very glaring mistake either way on their part, they aren't giving the list proper attention.


Also, I don't think there's much that's broken about cards you can say "Didn't use, didn't need" for turns on end. I mean if koko's supposed to be back breaking and warping then why did you have infy better options?

I could not disagree any less with this statement. For one, the RC is made up of a bunch of people who are far better and more dedicated players then you, me, and most of the entire forum community will ever be. Saying they don't know what they're doing is just plain wrong. You may be correct in that the banning was a mistake (I disagree, but that's personal opinion), but saying they have no idea what they are doing is flat out incorrect.

Second, the "don't use, don't need" situation can apply to pretty much any card on the banlist and several cards that aren't. Why should I play Primeval Titan if I already have 15 lands out, including Cradle, Deserted Temple, Urborg, and Coffers, and I have a potential game winner in my hand, like Avenger? Why should I T&N for Mike and Trike if I'm already winning by a lot? Playing super broken cards at times when you are already super ahead is stupid, anyone who isn't a Spike would want to win without breaking the game in half, and then cast the card in question if they need to.

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 5:55 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I have to say, banning Sundering Titan really pisses me off. I didn't mind too much yesterday, but the more I thought about it, the stupider the decision seems. One of the bigger problems in commander these days is excessive ramp (Common complaints are Prime Time and 9/10 mana spells.. What do those have in common?)... and you ban the anti-ramp card instead of banning Prime Time? Yeah, that seems smart. :facepalm:

There are still-legal cards that are both more powerful and more format warping (Prime Time), and yes, even cards that are more powerful *and* more hated by the general populace. (Mindslaver). Heck, people haven't even been complaining about titan much lately. And it's not like people could possibly play it without knowing it was LD.

People who played the titan did so for a reason. And for alot of us, that reason wasn't to be a dick.
10+ mana sorceries that win the game are getting more and more common (two in M13 alone thus far), and now people can't even play Sundering Titan to prevent the ramp deck from getting 10+ mana? Really? So now our answer is supposed to be... what, exactly? Not every deck can (or wants to) play blue to actually be able to interact with the annoying spells.
Do you *want* us to play cheese like Armageddon or Keldon Firebombers? Because that seems to be the likely result of this banning. The need to stop ramp hasn't gone anywhere, you've just made the answers to it even less palatable. Congrats. :facepalm:

EDIT: Responding to comments made between when I started this post and when I posted it.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Ramp decks aren't that big of a problem when they have 10 basics on the field.

Oh really? Casting Primal Surge or Tooth and Nail isn't a problem? In what world do you live in?

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
It's not a may ability.

If I cast a Mass Artifact removal, it's going to kill the mana screwed guy's Sol Ring too. Sorry, but stuff happens. The number of times where there is one player playing a color *and* that player is the mana screwed one is absurdly low.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Also, a properly timed Strip Mine/Wasteland/Tec Edge/G. Quarter will bring a 5 color deck to its knees.

A properly built 5 color deck doesn't give a one hoot about a one shot one target LD card.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Ruination

Is generally *far* more of a dick card then Sundering Titan. Titan kills 10 land, divided between two activations. Ruination almost always kills at least that many immediately by the time Titan could have been cast. I've played with and against both cards extensively... Ruination screws people over *far* more often then titan, and also has *far* more unintentional collateral damage.
Yeah, the guy ramping with Prime Time is (usually) effed. That's good. But so is the poor 3 color player who happened to play 4 nonbasics out of five lands. Oops. And the guy playing two color ramp with Explosive Veggies and such? He lost 1 land.

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My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 7:02 am 
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Joined: 2008-May-04 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
Just thought I'd offer some thoughts...

First off, I play a 5-color deck with 10x Duals, 4x Forest Shocks, and 5x Basic lands as the main mana producers. Sundering Titan (ST) WRECKS my deck so hard it isn't even funny. That being said, I think it's an absolutely fair strategy to keep my deck in check. No, a properly timed Wasteland, Strip Mine, etc. is not going to hose my deck. Honestly, if someone would waste a Waste (haha that's funny) on my Tropical Island instead of a Cabal Coffers, I'd be super disappointed.

As some have said above, I also find this banning contradictory. I'm not saying ST shouldn't be banned, but I think Primeval Titan (PT) is a far better choice. Sure it kills basics. Sure it kills them on the way in and out. Yet, quite frankly, I'd rather see a ST kill some lands, than someone fetching out Cabal Coffers and Urborg. Plus, ST is really swingy; some games it might be a house, other games it's only going to effect a single player. I'd rather just play Kozilek because I know I'm going to be drawing 4 cards and that's simply more powerful than blowing up some random basics. Hell if I get to attack with Kozilek, I'll probably blow up some lands anyways. The point is, typically, there are better card choices that ST which is why it's not played as often and, IMHO, a non-issue.

I mean if you really listen to the community, when was the last time people compared anything to ST? I'm pretty sure PT is the go to card for "top of the line" power. Why ban a card that is widely believed less problematic?


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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 7:15 am 

Joined: 2011-May-16 2:43 am
Age: Wyvern
Whiners/Idiots: 1
good Players: 0

Sundering Titan was never(!) a problem. These guys who are playing 5c should know that it is a bit more risky. If the Sundering Titan is used to kick out a single player, the others will ignore the screwed player because he would not be a threat at all. But the player who played the Sundering Titan will be in the focused by each enemy.

The Sundering Titen does not create "undesireable" game states except you think that Landdestruction is "undesireable"... and thats absolutely stupid!

The Primeval Titan and the Consectrated Sphinx are much more dangerous because both cards will change the game totally after they entered the battlefield. Most games ended a few turns after these Cards were used/copied/blinked/... but the Sundering Titan did never(!) such things.

Im playing the Sundering Titan in all of my decks because he is the perfect answer for these 3-5c Goodstuff noobs, to slow them down, to prevent them from playing their "i win the game" cards to early and 3-5c Goodstuff Decks got many(!) of these stupid cards. Most "i win the game" cards cost less or equal to the Sundering Titan, but the Sundering Titan does not win any game! Hes just slowing down noobs.

The most important fact: The Sundering Titan is not able to blow up a whole multiplayer match. Maybe it is possible to screw a single player of the group and then? Seems to be Stupid for me. A 8 Mana card should be able to do unfair things. Ban Terastoton and Woodfall primus two plz.

Mikaeus the unhallowed + Woodfall Primus + Phyrexian altar = "destroy all permaments" and XXX Mana...

Griselbrand should be available as a normal card in decks too, because a single Tooth and Nail will result in many different instant wins (Triskelion+Mikaeus for example).


So what now? Banning each card if enough idiots are crying for its ban?
Each idiot enjoys creating 30+ mana by abusing the primeval titan.
But the same idiot is crying for his/her mommy if the Sundering Titan is used to prevent this.




Stupid shit!

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Last edited by maSu on 2012-Jun-20 7:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 7:23 am 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-15 12:45 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't like seeing this kind of vitriol directed at the RC, who are much better and more experienced players than I am (and probably most of you as well).

That said, I find the banning of Sundering Titan puzzling at best, and if I'd heard there was a titan on the banned list, I'd have assumed Prime Time and been fine with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 7:51 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-09 9:54 am
Age: Dragon
Location: New England
You're right. It absolutely doesn't deserve the anger that it seems to be creating towards the RC. But I do think it'd be great to get a bit of a detailed explanation or play results or something from them to explain why this card got hit *right now*. Especially since it doesn't seem to be on anyone's radar, and also because it seems to break from the mold a bit as far as criteria is concerned. (As far as I can tell, "creates unfun gamestates" was never a prime criteria for banning, nor was "People have been complaining about it.")

Interesting that the responses to Sheldon's SCG article seem to mirror the "Where did this come from?" sentiment. (Well, that, and a surprising number of people who somehow are of the opinion that Griselbrand shouldn't have gotten banhammered. Can't figure that out...)

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 8:04 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
The short answer is "it was past time." I spend a great deal of time talking to a large number of people about the format during both my travels to events and online, and it routinely comes up as a card that the social player finds miserable. Over the last year, I've noticed a marked increase in it coming up (unsolicited, btw), which meant it was time to have the RC talk about it again.

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 8:20 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
maSu wrote:
Whiners/Idiots: 1
good Players: 0

Sundering Titan was never(!) a problem.
The Sundering Titen does not create "undesireable" game states So what now? Banning each card if enough idiots are crying for its ban?
Each idiot enjoys creating 30+ mana by abusing the primeval titan.
But the same idiot is crying for his/her mommy if the Sundering Titan is used to prevent this.


Stupid shit!

This is not how you make a point kids! Stay in school.

Sundering Titan was 'don't be a tool' banned at most games I play in. If your group LIKES it, use it. Easy enough

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 Post subject: Re: Sundering Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-20 8:21 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
kaldare wrote:
Do you *want* us to play cheese like Armageddon or Keldon Firebombers? Because that seems to be the likely result of this banning.

I would much rather my opponent drop Keldon Firebombers than Sundering Titan, unless we're talking about Tooth and Nail for It That Betrays + Bombers. I would rather my opponent chain Bombers turn after turn with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Conjurer's Closet than see the same cards alongside Titan (and Titan being an artifact also opens up other means such as Goblin Welder and Master Transmuter).

I agree that there is a need to fight ramp. I don't agree that Titan was the "correct" answer to ramp. I don't think there is a perfect one yet. Part of the difficulty is that Balance effects are inherently unbalanced. If Ward of Bones actually prevented ramp, I suspect it would still be a poor answer because it would unintentionally start making games unfun. Right now I think Mindlock Orb, Aven Mindcensor, and Stranglehold are the "most correct" answers to ramp, but even they are blatantly problematic.


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