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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 7:06 pm 
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Onlainari:

Whether or not your Blue deck has the typical offenders is not known unless it has been played against constantly or the deck has been looked through. Saying "I play blue differently" doesnt mean much. When your general has blue in its casting costs prepare to get hated on.

60 creatues and what about 38 lands? Doesnt sound like a good aggro deck, your just playing creatures and then running out of gas in short order.

Attacking you constanly with Nicol Bolas is probably a bad strat unless Nicol was the general, and even then, all opponents having no cards in hand is better than 2 having full grips. BUT we wernt there and this is not the topic at hand. We are not discussing how one should swing with Bolas.

Fugu:

For the most part everyone seems to agree with General Damage and its been covered pretty well.

I think its important to know what the board state is and who/what kind of people your dealing with. Some people take a single attack as a blood feud, some people dont. For me it depends on who it was and what they did. Did you use your Steel Hellkite to take out my 4 1/1 ants instead of say attacking player B who has Whispersilk Cloak, Extraplanar Lens and Loxodon Warhammer out on the field? Its happened to me and it pisses me off. At that point I stop trying to win and commit everything to killing that particular person. I cant tell you how much bad threat assessment irks me.

Targeting the player who is the biggest threat to me (wrath and counter.dec) usually means that I can clean up the rest of the players one at a time. If I have the chance to take out more than one player at once I will go for it. I'm not saying its the best and only way to get things done, but it has proven itself to work time and again. Is that person the only one I attack? No. Somtimes they get down creatures or in some way make it unprofitable to attack them, so I aim for someone else. Did player C just do something stupid? Looks like a new target was found. Its not like your rolling a dice to see who to attack before the game starts and dont deviate for one second.

Your right about not taking out a player doesnt always lead to an advantage, but if I want my Akroma's Memorial to resolve and not get Spelljacked or hit by Desertion then the Blue player HAS to go. Between the amount of draw they get and their steal/bounce/counter letting them get to the late game usually means you didnt win. I'm all for blue players exhausting their spells on someone else and when that happens I wont attack them as to not bring attention to myself, but when their hands are low and mana is tapped if I can kill them I will.

Threat assessment is key to an aggro strategy. If you just go in willy nilly attacking someone and nothing else or overextend your asking to get your ass handed to you.

Next time I suit up Rhys I'll try out attacking everyone and report as to what happened.

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This just in: EDH players (Magic players in general, really) are selfish and don't care what others view as fun unless it coincides directly with their own idea of what is fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 8:53 pm 
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Quote:
Fugu said stuff


Let me clarify what I mean by playing aggro. I mean killing with general damage ASAP. Playing a consistent turn 2 Akroma or a turn 3 Spirit of the Night makes this happen often.

Quote:
For your information as well Rishana, you targeted a "blue" deck with zero of the control type cards people hate.


I concede that, given this information, it was an incorrect play. You didn't inform me of this until you were at 18 Spirit of the Night damage. Had you said it on the first attack, I probably would have gone after Surging Chaos. However, the fact that I had you almost dead means that I need to finish the job otherwise those 3 attacks are essentially waste. The only EDH number that matters is 21.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-19 8:59 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
I thought it was 12 general damage. Either way, I'm ready to apologise for the behavior. Sorry, it was a game that was already poo because of Gaka's arguing over reap + grip of chaos =/.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 2:32 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
Quote:
Did you use your Steel Hellkite to take out my 4 1/1 ants instead of say attacking player B who has Whispersilk Cloak, Extraplanar Lens and Loxodon Warhammer out on the field? Its happened to me and it pisses me off. At that point I stop trying to win and commit everything to killing that particular person. I cant tell you how much bad threat assessment irks me.

This is a tangent, but I hear that rationale all the time and I find it funny. Committing yourself to killing a player for any reason other than for the win means refusing to perform your own threat assessment, which is what pissed you off in the first place! Threat assessment is a skill. There are better ways to teach it than declaring jihad. If they really made a mistake, it will cost them. Let them learn the consequences of their actions. If your death march succeeds, it will prevent those consequences from troubling them, and they won't learn why their choice was wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 6:31 am 

Joined: 2009-Dec-17 4:27 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Stockholm
Fugu wrote:
If they really made a mistake, it will cost them. Let them learn the consequences of their actions. If your death march succeeds, it will prevent those consequences from troubling them, and they won't learn why their choice was wrong.


This is of course assuming that they are the type of player to look back and try to analyze their plays. Some players have a more... carefree disposition. I still agree that you shouldn't diminish your chances for victory to punish other players, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 7:21 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Fugu wrote:
More than one person's arguments have been founded on the notion of hard card advantage that we have all learned from playing duels. A card I draw is card advantage +1, and a card drawn by my opponents is card advantage -1. This model breaks down in multiplayer. Every card I draw is card advantage roughly +1/x, where x is the number of opponents, and every card drawn by an opponent is roughly -1/x. It fluctuates based on the threat levels of each player.

Okay, I can see how you're getting that. And at the start of the game, I can see that, as everyone is an equal threat to each other.

However, once you start attacking everyone, and bringing everyone close to dying from another one of your attacks, then each of those players is going to want to stop you as fast as they can. This changes the card advantage from 1/x to much closer to 1 as you end up making it an 'O'-on-1 (where O=# of opponents in the game) game by spreading out your attacks evenly.

So you end up closer to what I originally stated than what you are proposing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fugu wrote:
This is a tangent, but I hear that rationale all the time and I find it funny. Committing yourself to killing a player for any reason other than for the win means refusing to perform your own threat assessment, which is what pissed you off in the first place!

But you're not looking at the larger picture.

By attacking the one player over until they are dead - it is likely that they will realize that they did something wrong. If they don't know, they will likely ask (at least in the form of "Why are you always attacking me!?")

Now, while the benefits of doing so for this game are minimal - the advantages in the long term are worth it. That player learns that there are people watching what they do (their opponents) and that if they do something that seems ... not sub-optimal, but a really really poor tactical choice - then there are repercussions. Perhaps that player will be more likely to look further around the board and make better threat assessments in later games.

Plus, it can be a bit of learning for that player (granted, not very direct in the teaching unless you specifically state why you are constantly focusing on them.) That leads to better opponents, which for most people here leads to more satisfying games.

So while it may seem like the person is committing the same error - but there are more things that need to be taken into consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 10:59 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-28 2:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
If I'm coming into a table blind, my only real rule is "blue players die first." Given the huge number of totally ridiculous things Blue can do in EDH, I generally try to take them out of the game before they can start making trouble.

There's also a few generals that paint a player- obvious douchebag generals (Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, Arcum Dagsson et al) aside, Cromat, Karn, Silver Golem, Dralnu, Lich Lord and Intet, the Dreamer will all having me gunning for you a disproportionate amount of the time.

Of course, though, there's more to it than that- you need to make judgements off the players as well as the cards they're playing. There's one guy I know, for instance, who you need to kill ASAP if he's running R/W, simply because of the times that he's just messed around for the first fifteen turns and then suddenly the entire table finds itself dead courtesy of Insurrection, Sunforger, Pandemonium, Rise of the Hobgoblins and the like.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 12:58 pm 
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Fugu wrote:
Quote:
Did you use your Steel Hellkite to take out my 4 1/1 ants instead of say attacking player B who has Whispersilk Cloak, Extraplanar Lens and Loxodon Warhammer out on the field? Its happened to me and it pisses me off. At that point I stop trying to win and commit everything to killing that particular person. I cant tell you how much bad threat assessment irks me.

This is a tangent, but I hear that rationale all the time and I find it funny. Committing yourself to killing a player for any reason other than for the win means refusing to perform your own threat assessment, which is what pissed you off in the first place! Threat assessment is a skill. There are better ways to teach it than declaring jihad. If they really made a mistake, it will cost them. Let them learn the consequences of their actions. If your death march succeeds, it will prevent those consequences from troubling them, and they won't learn why their choice was wrong.


The consequence for that particular action was getting killed. Sometimes it takes getting killed to learn what you did wrong. Maybe "stop trying to win" was a poor choice of words. Whoever was target number 1 got put into the #2 position. Its not like I just stop paying attention and start making terrible decisions completely ignoring the board. If I need to be taken down a peg I can deal with that. Killing my 14 3/4 plant tokens? Yep, right fucking choice, but when people point out better targets and you still make those kinds of choices all it tells people is that you will randomly fuck with the board state or play kingmaker.

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TheAardvark wrote:
This just in: EDH players (Magic players in general, really) are selfish and don't care what others view as fun unless it coincides directly with their own idea of what is fun.

In related news, water is wet.


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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 2:09 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
The disagreement over actively punishing bad threat assessment reminds me of disciplining children. It's common to punish kids for doing bad things when they aren't capable of understanding the true consequences of their actions. But do you really need to punish a kid who does something dumb like takes his favorite books into the bath tub? The books will be ruined, and with a little guidance, that will be punishment enough--the child won't make that mistake again. I also find it distasteful in general to adopt a disciplinarian attitude towards inexperienced players. In a casual game, an opponent should be respected as your social peer, no matter how many years of experience separate you.

If you take out a player as punishment for bad threat assessment, they won't have a chance to see for themselves why it was dumb to kill Story Circle instead of Vicious Shadows. In future games, they won't have the experience of losing to Vicious Shadows to draw on; they'll have to take your word for it that it's good, and since you haven't exactly been nice, they may not even want to trust you.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 5:12 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
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Unfortunately, Fugu, if a player does the wrong thing with an incorrect threat assessment, and the player they incorrectly disrupted ends up winning anyway, they'll feel the incorrect threat assessment justified.

As many games are played over many weeks, the best long term strategy is to indeed focus on killing them. It's both a punishment and makes it easier down the track to explain to them it was a bad play.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 6:02 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
I play with this kid every weekend, some people just dont want to learn threat assessment. Im actually not that old of a player either, I joined around Shadowmoor, but when you constantly make bad plays and refuse to learn from them people get tired of it. I'm not the only one who hates on this kid and I would say he's the first one out nine times out of ten.

If this were a new player I would love to tell them whats a better play and for what reasons. Still want to do it? Oookaaay, not my favorite play, but we'll see what happens. When your not new to the game and you just piss everyone off, shit happens. Bad threat assessment is one thing, refusing to try and get better is entirely different.

onlainari wrote:
Unfortunately, Fugu, if a player does the wrong thing with an incorrect threat assessment, and the player they incorrectly disrupted ends up winning anyway, they'll feel the incorrect threat assessment justified.

As many games are played over many weeks, the best long term strategy is to indeed focus on killing them. It's both a punishment and makes it easier down the track to explain to them it was a bad play.


See, focusing DOES have its uses.

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TheAardvark wrote:
This just in: EDH players (Magic players in general, really) are selfish and don't care what others view as fun unless it coincides directly with their own idea of what is fun.

In related news, water is wet.


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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-21 4:51 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Kalterwolf wrote:
See, focusing DOES have its uses.

I have a post near the start of this thread with a very large wall of text going over the uses...

Cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-21 7:09 pm 

Joined: 2010-Nov-09 7:20 pm
Age: Drake
Speaking of bad threat assessment, how do you guys react to someone's dislike of you affecting their judgement? In second game ever with my second EDH deck (I started MTG the week Scars came out), one of the table Spikes was pulling Sundering Titan shenanigans, and instead of; say targeting the Scion combo deck with threats out, or the counter-ready Blue player, both of whom have played since the early days, he blew up my Borborygmos deck's only lands (2 forests, 2 mountains), and smacked into me while I floundered for mana, bringing me down to 12, and leaving me with only one land (A Gruul turf) to try and play something. I ended up scooping, and have resolved to not play with him, as he knows I am new, knew there were experienced players with expensive decks playing, and yet still targeted my land-base because of personal dislike.


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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-22 3:35 am 
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I wouldn't know. I can't imagine a scenario where a player did that to me, but I guess I'm not a teenager.

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 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-22 7:33 am 
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El Taco the Rogue wrote:
Speaking of bad threat assessment, how do you guys react to someone's dislike of you affecting their judgement?

It's weird... I have sort of been on the other side of that.

There is one player I used to play with, who I dislike. However, to make sure I wasn't just picking on him, I would try to make sure there was some sort of in-game justification for attacking him (as he had a tendency to whine about when things didn't go his way.)

So on that note, whenever I did have a justifiable reason to attack him (or destroy something he controlled) I was more than willing to do so. But I did make sure there wasn't a huge reason I should be doing whatever I do to someone else instead.

As a couple examples:
* If he had Teferi in play, I would attack him. My decks have a certain amount of instants in them, intended to be used as instants. When a single card turns all those cards into other types of cards (or off completely), then I have a very valid reason to attack him.
* When he had Teferi as his general, I'd use the same reasoning to constantly attack him - even if he would say he would only cast him when he needed a dude.
* Another game, my hand was about to be emptied (and refilled) by a Wheel of Fate. So I wanted to use my Acid Moss before it went away (this was on turn 8-10 I think). So I looked around for a good land to target, and I chose his Ravnica bounce-land. There weren't any other special/legendary lands on the table (I looked, and would have chosen one of those if they were around), and I think it may have been the only land that could produce more than one mana (not 100% sure on this.) Regardless, he took offense to this, and just got up and left the game.

My suggestion would be simply to not play with the guy. If someone asks why, just tell them that you play to have fun, and he seems to go out of his way to ruin your ability to have fun. If people don't believe you, then ask them to watch as you play a game with him in it. If it is as you say, it should end up fairly obvious.


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