Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Sep-22 5:01 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 92 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-17 2:30 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Fugu wrote:
Attacking a player with Fog when you could attack someone else is more like casting an important spell when you know someone will counter it.

This is a poor comparison. Using up an attack step that you know you will get again next turn is totally different from using up a spell you may not ever get back that game.

If you don't attack someone just because of the possibility that they will expend resources to negate your attack, you allow that opponent to be in a better position without actually expending any resources. That's not something I want to do when I can avoid it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-17 3:25 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
Attack steps are a resource. As volatile as board states are, a given attack step may be your only chance to swing with the creatures you have. It's not always wrong to swing into Fog--maybe you're clearing the path for the next player, or you have no other good attacks and you don't need to block. If not, you're better off sending your guys at someone else until one of those things becomes true, or the threat of fog is gone.

_________________
CR 905.1. Haters gonna hate. It's not a may ability.
Were you blown away by the insight and hilarity of this post? Damn. Try CommanderCast anyway!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-17 10:16 am 
EDH Rules Committee
User avatar

Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Another good reason to attack into a fog: If the next player holds that philosophy, he'll be much more likely to attack your target instead of you.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-17 10:21 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
The guy died to the other players killing him as soon as I left. He was the next person dead. He was using all his resources to kill me. Everyone else was stockpiling them.

My point was that considering it's not strategically justifiable, he shouldn't have made the game crap for another player. It's a casual game of magic, you don't walk in and say "this is my best chance of winning, with 0% chance of winning, I'm going to apply that".

_________________
BAN WILLOW SATYR

DCI Level 1 Judge.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-17 11:31 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
onlainari wrote:
The guy died to the other players killing him

:lol: :lol: :lol:

That's getting sig'd.

EDIT: To actually weigh in on this topic, I agree that playing aggro it is best to choose a victim and go for the kill. The key is choosing the correct victim, and as has already been said, that's often the blue player who is probably playing for the long game. If I'm playing Uril or Stoutarm I will absolutely focus on one opponent. If someone else is getting too strong, however, I will change targets, at least long enough to take them down a peg. Other favorite targets are "guy with 20 WoG variants" and "guy that always tries to combo out".

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-17 12:58 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Sep-30 4:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
onlainari wrote:
The guy died to the other players killing him

:lol: :lol: :lol:

That's getting sig'd.

EDIT: To actually weigh in on this topic, I agree that playing aggro it is best to choose a victim and go for the kill. The key is choosing the correct victim, and as has already been said, that's often the blue player who is probably playing for the long game. If I'm playing Uril or Stoutarm I will absolutely focus on one opponent. If someone else is getting too strong, however, I will change targets, at least long enough to take them down a peg. Other favorite targets are "guy with 20 WoG variants" and "guy that always tries to combo out".


Those all seem like solid choices for targets. Depending on your strategy if your voltroning it instead of something like tokens, the Mono Black control player is a good target as well, sac effects make for a sad general.

If your playing decks like Uril, the last thing you want to have is three or four opponents at 11-20 general damage, all that means is you've managed to scare the shit out of them and have 3-4 people gunning for you even harder than they were when generals were shown.

_________________
TheAardvark wrote:
This just in: EDH players (Magic players in general, really) are selfish and don't care what others view as fun unless it coincides directly with their own idea of what is fun.

In related news, water is wet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-17 1:31 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Actually if I'm playing Uril, black and white players are first on the hitlist, since they are the most likely to wrath away Uril or force sac before I can defend against it. And Hallowed Burial makes me a saaaaaaad panda.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-17 2:06 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Aug-10 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: California, USA
onlainari wrote:
The guy died to the other players killing him as soon as I left. He was the next person dead. He was using all his resources to kill me. Everyone else was stockpiling them.

My point was that considering it's not strategically justifiable, he shouldn't have made the game crap for another player. It's a casual game of magic, you don't walk in and say "this is my best chance of winning, with 0% chance of winning, I'm going to apply that".


I think our point Onlainari is that although you make a sound argument against this player's strategy in attacking you (or players in this general situation) many of us can make equally valid strategic arguments as to why we think singling out a player (even with a fog in hand) is a good idea.

You may be right, someone may have chosen to beat up on you for reasons other than strategic ones, but I think you should concede what many of us are telling you: in many situations this kind of behavior is sound tactical reasoning. You may disagree on the over all effectiveness of this strategy but try to understand that someone employing it doesn't mean they're trying to be a dick to you.

_________________
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!" -The Witch King of Angmar
"But no living man am I! You look upon a woman." -Éowyn, daughter of Éomund


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-17 3:49 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Sep-30 4:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Actually if I'm playing Uril, black and white players are first on the hitlist, since they are the most likely to wrath away Uril or force sac before I can defend against it. And Hallowed Burial makes me a saaaaaaad panda.


Luckily our mono white guy quit, Mangara as his general and lifegain as his wincon he thought that people were ganging up on him. I didnt like him, he kept fucking with my lands early in the game, RFG them with mangara and strip mine if he could, then I would retaliate later on and he would get all bent out of shape. No one really misses him so its all good.

Hallowed Burial sucks, but thats why Chord of Calling and that new, sexy Green Sun's Zenith are for. The preserver is good for sac stuff, too bad hes got no ass. Wing Shards was my main problem with Uril. Chording for Tajuru Preserver in response to a Wing Shards is amazingly funny. Watching their smirk disintegrate in front of your eyes, then the fear knowing that they have nothing else.

Did I mention that I love aggro?

_________________
TheAardvark wrote:
This just in: EDH players (Magic players in general, really) are selfish and don't care what others view as fun unless it coincides directly with their own idea of what is fun.

In related news, water is wet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 5:43 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Dec-02 9:50 pm
Age: Drake
The pettiness inside me is rejoicing right now because I wanted to reply to this thread but the MTG salvation post was locked. Hell I almost made a thread about playing decks in which the goal is do win via quick general damage. Once you choose a target with those kind of decks it's foolish to not finish a player off. A mere swing here and there is not going to get it done—one needs to commit his assault to a single opponent if general damage is to matter. After all its just normal damage until the 21st point.

I originally choose you to be taken out first because you were indeed playing blue. In my mind, a Commander game with one less blue player is a better game. You had taken three swings from my Spirit of the Night and were one swing from death before the politics started.

First you dropped the O-Stone thinking that it would ward me off. It didn't. I have no answer whatsoever to the stone other than to force its activation, which I did. Had I not, you would still have an O-Stone and I'd be no closer to taking a player out. Spreading my general damage is just not effective. It essentially would not have effected the board in any way, shape or form

When I continued to go after you, you threw a fit because you had a fog. You ranted how it was not a strategical play and I'd agree with you IF I was playing some other way to get rid of the fog. No one but me in that game was attacking. You'd still have a fog. My only option is to attack through it.

None of this was douchbaggary. None of this was “picking on you.” I consciously play no answers because I like the all in [b]I'M ATTACKING UNTIL YOU'RE DEAD[b] style of play. That's all Spirit does—attack. What the hell did you expect? For us to all sit around singing and saying “please pass the general damage?”

Yes I did loose that game but I did what my deck does. Attack—attack until you're dead. Were I have to done differently, as you had suggested, you'd still be in the game, still have me under your thumb with that O-Stone and fog and Surging Chaos still would have been able to Sorin and get me with Geth.

Don't be a little cry baby.

_________________
+ E m b r a c e ~ t h e ~ S k u l l +

Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 8:16 am 

Joined: 2009-Dec-17 4:27 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Stockholm
As someone who is relying on general damage, the most surefire way to make people just drop everything they're doing and dedicate all resources to killing you is to give them some general damage. Having 26 life is fairly safe, being one attack by someone's general away from death isn't and the only reliable way to turn the latter into the former is to kill the player with the offending general. Unless you want to paint a giant target on your forehead you do not "spread the love" with general damage.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 9:35 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Mar-03 10:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Just to reiterate what other people have said here: So-called 'rattlesnake' cards are only effective in their deterrence if the person being deterred has anything to lose. A deck that relies on creatures in the red zone to win the game is going to run headlong into a Fog all day long because if he sits back, his dudes are not doing damage to you for MULTIPLE turns; if he sends lethal your way, they only don't do damage to you for ONE turn, then kill you the next.

It's the same as when I am playing Sen Triplets and lay Mindslaver with less than 10 mana on board; if my opponent Fracturing Gusts when I pass priority, I lose THAT investment, but then he doesn't have the Gust for when I put down Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry/Time Sieve next turn, which is what I really wanted to play anyway. Or when, in Momir Vig, I lay Palinchron with Heartbeat of Spring on board and it gets countered; now Counter Boy has no remaining answers to Cloudstone Curio or Cloud of Faeries, which then produces the mana I need to drop Tidespout Tyrant. The game ultimately comes down to resource management, and any of the above scenarios is depleting more of their critical resources than of yours, which is going to win you the game, or at least make your target lose it.

As far as spreading the love goes: I cannot conceive of a decent EDH deck that is truly aggro that does NOT focus on one player at a time. Horde of Notions, to give the example of one of my own aggro decks, HAPPILY eats the face of one player-- usually the blue player or other control player-- because if said player has time to stabilize it's nearly impossible to recover. (Though Horde itself is a bit of a special case because of the recursion ability... recurring Crib Swap and Mulldrifter enough times can USUALLY at least keep me in it long enough to clear the board and bash some more with my remaining army.)

Is it FUN to be picked on? Of course not. When the Agrus Kos player kicked the everliving crap out of my Wrexial Deck before I even had time to play a blocker recently, I yelled at him for being an EDHDB and stormed off. But with the advantage of hindsight, it was the right play for him-- Wrexial plays all sorts of sweeps and discard, and I was a turn off of being able to wreck him at minimum, and dominate the board at maximum. He lost that game, but lasted much longer and had much more stake in the game than he would have had I gotten my key cards on the field.

Beyond the question of Aggro vs. Control/Combo, the situation described in this thread comes up against one of the Fundamental Rules of EDH/Commander Politics, to wit: All Else Being Equal, Kill The Mono-Blue Player First ;)

_________________
Currently Playing:
Animar: All-Creatures, All The Time (Silly stompy-aggro)
Sen Triplets: Robots! (Proliferate Control/Combo)
Sedris, the Traitor King: BRAAAAAINS (Zombie Tribal)
Zedruu, Group Pickpocket (Pillowfort Test of Endurance deck. You heard right)
Ghave, Guru of Dumb (Token Control)

gaijinguy wrote:
As for blue- being boring/infuriating by crushing everyone else's fun until it assembles a cheeseball combo is pretty much what it DOES.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 11:34 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-08 6:41 pm
Age: Drake
Rishana wrote:
- things -


Agree with everything here 100%.

When you're playing an archetype that is already against a huge disadvantage in a multiplayer, control-heavy format, diluting it's effectiveness even further by trying to 'spread the love' takes your deck from 'disadvantaged' to 'unplayable'. You don't see the counterspell guy 'spreading the love' by countering random spells by people around the table because they already countered one guy's spells a few times. It has nothing to do with being picked on, or 'bullied' or whatever. It's playing aggro.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 12:04 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Sep-30 4:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
GHoooSTS wrote:
Rishana wrote:
- things -


Agree with everything here 100%.

When you're playing an archetype that is already against a huge disadvantage in a multiplayer, control-heavy format, diluting it's effectiveness even further by trying to 'spread the love' takes your deck from 'disadvantaged' to 'unplayable'. You don't see the counterspell guy 'spreading the love' by countering random spells by people around the table because they already countered one guy's spells a few times. It has nothing to do with being picked on, or 'bullied' or whatever. It's playing aggro.


This.

You really never do see the mono Blue player use his counterspells on not my Akroma's Memorial. Wheres the love there?

_________________
TheAardvark wrote:
This just in: EDH players (Magic players in general, really) are selfish and don't care what others view as fun unless it coincides directly with their own idea of what is fun.

In related news, water is wet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spreading the love or picking on someone
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-18 2:19 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
What I find telling is that in almost every story people have told about the time they aggro'd out one player, they admit that they lost the game. Can anyone tell a story in which they kill one player, then kill another, and then another, and actually win the game? It sounds like you guys are using "aggro" to describe a hopeless strategy whose only realistic ambition is to kill one or two players before some other guy wins.

If you aren't playing to win the whole game, you're a leech. You're like the Barbarians in a Civilization game. That would be fine if your group had agreed to play a variant in which Barbarians would roam the table, taking out the players with the strongest potential. (Which rewards weaker decks.)

If you do hope to win the whole game with your aggro deck, spread out your freakin' damage! The strategy that most of you are recommending will actively undermine your chances at victory. Look more closely at the reasons being given for targeting one player.

1. You won't be able to beat that player late game.

But you will be able to beat the other players? Maybe if they're all aggro decks, but what if they aren't? You hope to start from scratch against a guy with a developed board who has had several turns to prepare for you, and with your resources depleted by your first target? And the next guy after him? That is not a realistic strategy.

Furthermore, everyone is concerned about beating the strong player late game, and you don't have to be their policeman. Let him live, and let other players use their resources to foil his plans. That will weaken him and them, making your position in the late game better than you think.

2. If you threaten everyone, they'll gang up on you and destroy you.

This is an irrational fear. If it comes to the point that the table considers you the biggest threat and gangs up on you, congratulate yourself. It is a sign that you have a realistic chance of winning. This is what you should strive for! If attacking only one person gave you a realistic chance of winning, people would gang up on you for that, too, but it doesn't, so they don't.

Plan for the table to gang up on you. Play enough card advantage to race against their control. Play enough disruption to combat their win conditions. If you were only attacking one player at a time, they would still have all of the same control cards, but they would have the luxury of saving the control until they were actually targeted. If you force everyone to use their control as you go, it will be much easier to stay relevant in the late game. When your board gets wrecked, shrug and rebuild. Above all, exploit the fact that, in the late game, the non-aggro decks are the major threats. Your opponents will have priorities besides you.

3. If you split up your damage, it doesn't matter as much.

This is false. Life is a resource; consume it. The best position an aggro deck can be in is if all of its opponents have low life totals, meaning that it can finish off any one opponent nearly at will. The road to that position is to bring down life totals evenly. It's not as if you are adding to the amount of damage you'll have to do before the game ends: those other players' life totals would still be there when you got to them. Put yourself in a position where you an make tactical strikes and kill players within one or two turns of each other. Even better, play cards that let you produce sudden, massive bursts of damage and take out multiple weak players in one turn. When you start lowering the life totals, every point matters, because you are trying to engineer a board state where you can start to one-shot folks.


All of my arguments depend on the game state, the decks, and the players. There are circumstances where it is correct to zero in on one opponent. And if ever you can kill a player on the cheap, by all means do so. But those circumstances are the exception. If you want to win a multi-player game with creature swarms, you can't just pretend you are in a series of duels and hope for the best. Be smart, use politics, play for the long game, and split up your damage!

_________________
CR 905.1. Haters gonna hate. It's not a may ability.
Were you blown away by the insight and hilarity of this post? Damn. Try CommanderCast anyway!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 92 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: